[DONE] Raise the train limit. 120 trains is way too low.

[Sassafrass]

I was playing on the medium goal server, having a great game against another player.  I prefer short train, high-traffic networks.  Towards the end of the game (which was very close) I discovered I could not make anymore trains.  Please raise the train limit, 120 is absurd.  I would post the save game but the file is too large (1mb).

[alex879ro]

I was playing on the medium goal server, having a great game against another player.  I prefer short train, high-traffic networks.  Towards the end of the game (which was very close) I discovered I could not make anymore trains.  Please raise the train limit, 120 is absurd.  I would post the save game but the file is too large (1mb).

No need to post a savegame. I was there when u suggested and i agree with it...since server 4 is a medium goal, i think we can up the limit to 200 trains. In comparison, server 3 has 80 trains and 40 mil goal, while server 4 has 120 trains and 750 mil goal, so ...not a bad idea:).  Need opinions on the subject.

[Sassafrass]

Is there an argument on why the train limits are kept low?  I doubt it's an issue with CPU usage.

[TechNoir]

Is there an argument on why the train limits are kept low?  I doubt it's an issue with CPU usage.

I think it was done to balance gameplay for everyone. Best players can have limit much faster than decent players. In that way they can win a game with no effort. When you have small number of trains it is challenging cause you need to have well-planned network. It also teaches you to focus on quality rather than quantity.

[YorVeX]

in general: train limit is not done because of "CPU issues" in the classical way, not on server side anyway. but on big servers like 5 and 8 many players suffer from local graphics lag when many companies are maxing out high limits like e.g. 500 trains. you shouldn't forget that every increase has to be multiplied by the number of companies. 500 trains used by 15 companies means your OpenTTD client needs to calculate the movement of 7500 trains every second.
interestingly you don't see a very high CPU usage on clients either, yet graphics can lag and the client starts to respond so bad that the server eventually kicks players out because they lag behind too much. so it might also be an issue with inefficient programming on OpenTTD side, i don't know.
only thing i know is that before the server runs into any CPU problems the clients will already suffer, especially on slower computers.

anyway, this for a small excursion into vehicle limits. apart from those facts alex is right, the limits were mostly set for gameplay reasons. you might have seen that the train limit on server 7 is even as low as 10 (with 20 road vehicles). it forces players to not just get the goal by spamming lots of trains and stations in a crude system, instead they have to think about how to do a very efficient line and economize with the limited resources they got.
most of such limits are used with gameplay aspects in mind only, the same goes for train length limit or the balance of limits between different vehicle types (except ships, they really just kill the server CPU).

i still agree that even by those measures the limit on server 4 is quite low. so to cut a long story short: yes, let's raise it.

[alex879ro]

Also, a thing that i appreciate at Sassafrass is the courage, and i want to thank him for that. Even tho he just came from Luukland ( he said it himself) , he understood what i told and posted on the forum so we can all see his opinions . I only told him once "post it on the forum if you`re unhappy with the limit" when i saw him complaining and he did. And i want to thank him for that.

[geo]

Also, a thing that i appreciate at Sassafrass is the courage, and i want to thank him for that. Even tho he just came from Luukland ( he said it himself) , he understood what i told and posted on the forum so we can all see his opinions . I only told him once "post it on the forum if you`re unhappy with the limit" when i saw him complaining and he did. And i want to thank him for that.

give him a karma too

[Sassafrass]

I'd just like to make a note.  I've been playing on your servers for a few days and I really like them.  On average, I rarely see players have more than 80 trains.  They have  about 60 average.  There are maybe 1-3 people who go past 100.  I play on other servers which have more than 1700 trains going on the network and the OpenTTD client has 0 issues handling that many trains.  That's what the game is designed for. 
Out of curiosity, I checked all of your servers and the train limits are just too low for my play style.  Not everyone likes to use 200+ TL4 (train length) trains for their network like I do; most people prefer really long trains because it's easier to make money that way.  If that is the game-play you are striving for, I understand: these are not the servers for me.
I like to challenge myself and make a network that requires smart design to support the flow of that many trains.  I've received compliments from other players on your server about how my networks are the nicest they've ever seen.  I enjoy showing others that OpenTTD has more to offer.
Let me know when you raise the train limit for arctic or any of your other servers, until then, I bid you adieu.

[alex879ro]

I'd just like to make a note.  I've been playing on your servers for a few days and I really like them.  On average, I rarely see players have more than 80 trains.  They have  about 60 average.  There are maybe 1-3 people who go past 100.  I play on other servers which have more than 1700 trains going on the network and the OpenTTD client has 0 issues handling that many trains.  That's what the game is designed for. 
Out of curiosity, I checked all of your servers and the train limits are just too low for my play style.  Not everyone likes to use 200+ TL4 (train length) trains for their network like I do; most people prefer really long trains because it's easier to make money that way.  If that is the game-play you are striving for, I understand: these are not the servers for me.
I like to challenge myself and make a network that requires smart design to support the flow of that many trains.  I've received compliments from other players on your server about how my networks are the nicest they've ever seen.  I enjoy showing others that OpenTTD has more to offer.
Let me know when you raise the train limit for arctic or any of your other servers, until then, I bid you adieu.

I understand what u mean by 1700 trains and I know that network type . Until recently , our long goals have been focused on large trains. However, recently we started this strategy too. We raised the limit for server 8 (long goal desert) to 500 trains. I would like to see those servers which have 1700 trains and 0 issues. Perhaps we could get some ideas from there about how to improve our network. We will also monitor server 8 to see whether the server load has decreased and if that happens , we are prepared to increase the train number there. Basically as you seen before, our policy is listening to what it is proposed on the forum. Also, if you would give us the name of the server that has such a high limit, we will search it and have a report over it. For us there is no problem on raising that train limit if players would still be able to connect. However, i am also considering another step .....getting a new server done with a medium goal (or even changing the arctic goal that way) and raising the train limit as you say. But basically our policy is show us that what u propose is viable and we will implement it.

The most important for us will be to have the name of that server with 1700 trains and we will have a report on it in a few days

P.S. I am also a big fan of servers with big maps and big train limits....but i am also of fan of servers which aren`t empty cause of the load they cause.
You might want to check out or scoring table and see the first players in that scoring table. I can assure that they use more then 80 trains. Best servers to do that are

Server 5 (Temperate Long Goal ; 450 trains ; 20 tile train length)
Server 8 (Desert Long Goal ; 500 trains ; 14 train length)

[Sassafrass]

Thanks, I'm glad you're considering my suggestion.  The server I'm referencing is the openttdcoop Public Server.  It has a password but it is easy to acquire if you join their IRC.  It currently has 1,666 trains and it is struggling this game but I believe that is because it is a PAX game and there are many massive cities which use a lot of resources.  In previous games there have been more trains where I haven't noticed any issues.
The 450 and 500 train limits are more than fine.  I've been playing on your 450 train limit server.  It's the 120 trains and less that are too low; I should have clarified that.

[YorVeX]

but coop means more players on one company, so it looks like we're comparing apples to bananas here. if there is 4 players on your 1700 trains company it's only 425 trains per player, so basically less than on our server 5 or 8.

and 1700 isn't much as total train number on a server, as i said earlier server 8 has a limit of 500 per company and there can be 15 companies = 7500 trains. a lot more than only 1700 and this is when it starts to lag. and also only for some players and mostly in the bigger zoom levels. right now the complaints from players about such problems on servers 5 and 8 aren't many but they are there. so i think we have found a good balance there. i still wouldn't want to raise the limit to 500 on the smaller servers though, for aforementioned gameplay reasons.

[alex879ro]

Thanks, I'm glad you're considering my suggestion.  The server I'm referencing is the openttdcoop Public Server.  It has a password but it is easy to acquire if you join their IRC.  It currently has 1,666 trains and it is struggling this game but I believe that is because it is a PAX game and there are many massive cities which use a lot of resources.  In previous games there have been more trains where I haven't noticed any issues.
The 450 and 500 train limits are more than fine.  I've been playing on your 450 train limit server.  It's the 120 trains and less that are too low; I should have clarified that.

Thanks for the tip: I`ve been trying to get into that server for some time...but never knew where to get the password...also..i can say i never tried:)..true:D
As for the smaller servers, we have different servers...for each one`s taste:) They cannot all have the same limits.

Server 1 : No Goal ---> 300 train limit --->> 20 tiles Train Length -->> medium size server( i`m referring to the dimension of systems which can be built there)
Server 2: Metropolis (only pax,mail)  -->> 50 train limit -->> 20 tile train length --->> small size server
Server 3: Normal Desert Goal -->> 80 trains --->> 20 train length ---->> small size server
Server 4: Arctic Goal --->> 120 trains (will be changed to 200) -->> 14 train length ---->> medium size server
Server 5 : Temperate Long Goal --->> 450 trains --->> 20 train length --->> big size server
Server 6 : Hard Goal --->> 100 trains --->> 7 train length --->> small size server
Server 7: Quickie Desert Goal --->> 10 trains --->>> 10 train length --->> micro size server
Server 8: Desert Long Goal --->> 500 trains --->> 14 tiles train length --->> big size server

Let`s hope that we will also have the Super Long Goal which will be a very big size server.

@Yorvex, actually the server starts lagging when 3-4 players make 450 trains (test done on s5) so....no chance of really getting to 7500.....but i`m still thinking of possibilities to raise that limit. I will check that server and see what settings they got.

[TechNoir]

Out of curiosity, Actually I tried to see how things work on coop server yesterday. But my PC couldnt keep the pace with server. I had awful lag and I got timeout ;/ There is something to it that (especially bigger map) or more train produce lags.

[YorVeX]

took some time, sorry. limit on server 4 was now raised from 120 to 200.