Legal?

[phmadore]

Seems this guy dug a valley and built his train line in it. The thing is, it goes across most of the map, and in order to bridge it, I  had to do expensive landscaping. Is this considered blocking? I'm not mad about it, I just want to know if that's what it is considered.

[Andreas]

According to the detailed rules (https://wiki.x-base.info/openttd/rules):

10. No unnecessary land modifications
Don't make any kind of changes to the land when they are unnecessary for your transports. E.g. don't write logos onto the map or build a large hill to place your HQ on. And of course don't make big land level changes.
And as big land level changes are forbidden you are only allowed to do small level changes for a rail stretch. Try to avoid digging a big stretch into the map or levelling much land up just to have your rails on the same height level for a full route, adapt to the land height in some bigger steps instead. We got realistic acceleration on the servers, so hills barely slow your trains down.

So in short: yes it is forbidden. It is not considered blocking though, since you are able pass them quite easily. (and they do not seem to be built with the purpose to block.
Personally I think it looks a bit ugly, but if I were an admin and I were called for this, I would probably warn the person to stop it and explain that it is not allowed. Would I reset/kick for it? Probably not...

On a side-note: it is possible to cross it with a shorter bridge and without the need to let your trains go up. (since bridges can start on diagonal tiles aswell) see screenshot.

[alex879ro]

Modification of the landscape can be interpreted in multiple ways. What he did had a purpose: to make a coridor so he can build all 3 lines toghether.

When playing into singleplayer, this is a common way to build and you get used to it. When you play on multiplayer for the first time, you tend to keep up the habit. What he did is not against the rules and no admin should react to this. The reason is very simple: we have a terraforming limit.
The terraforming limit is based on an algorythm and we implemented so we can finish the debate about "this guy terraformed 3 tiles when the rules used to say 2 tiles max, please warn him"

So if he chose to wait hours and hours in order to terraform his line, then it is his decision. Personally, my oppinion is that he lost time...but..that`s me. According to the rules he did nothing wrong.

In order to consider that he blocked, you must prove his clear INTENTION of blocking.
This situation is in no way related to the one where a player terraforms around an industry in order to prevent others to build there. That is indeed blocking and forbidden.

Avoiding such situations is very simple and you can do it by planning your line before you build and investigating what are the obstacles that you face. On bigger servers this is very useful in order to avoid big water surfaces.

[imus]

Alex is right on most things except the "when playing in singleplayer, ...".
This way of building was actually used on all old multiplayer servers as well. It was before the servers started to always use "realistic acceleration".

In the original acceleration model it was really bad to let your trains go up a tile, so people leveled the terrain across the entire map like this in about every game :p

So basically it's a problem of knowing the mechanics of the game rather than trying to cheat.

ps: it's also why many players keep using short corners as well, since they don't know how hard a train slows down on them

[Andreas]

So if he chose to wait hours and hours in order to terraform his line, then it is his decision. Personally, my oppinion is that he lost time...but..that`s me. According to the rules he did nothing wrong.

If this is the case, I would suggest to change the wording in point 10 of the detailed rules because it quite clearly states:

10. No unnecessary land modifications
Don't make any kind of changes to the land when they are unnecessary for your transports. E.g. don't write logos onto the map or build a large hill to place your HQ on. And of course don't make big land level changes.
And as big land level changes are forbidden you are only allowed to do small level changes for a rail stretch. Try to avoid digging a big stretch into the map or levelling much land up just to have your rails on the same height level for a full route, adapt to the land height in some bigger steps instead. We got realistic acceleration on the servers, so hills barely slow your trains down.

This is clearly an example of 'digging a big stretch into the map'.

Ps. My reason to suggest this is because I am in favor of keeping the rules as simple and short as possible, and stating that something is not allowed, but is not enforced goes against this principle

[imus]

Seems Andreas is right. It is (sinds rules update?) against the rules to build like that.

This means that if a player notices someone do this he is free to call an admin for it. The admin should then explain that it is not allowed.

Although it is a rule break I don't think it's needed to really punish the player too hard for it the first time you explain it. Rebuilding the entire thing seems pointless as well ...
Not entirely sure how to handle it if someone calls out on this case -.-

I mean, it doesn't even give you an advantage since you're taking so much longer to build it and it costs you quite a lot (especially if you pass through water).

[alex879ro]

He didn`t "built a big trench along the map"

The way you say it makes it look like he carved a valley just for the fun of landscaping. He considered landscaping to be necesary in order for his trains to reach maximum speed. It is not bad will. It`s just not knowing that he doesn`t need it.

According to him it is a necesary modification...and I can assure that I don`t think he waited that long in order to terraform just for the fun of it.

In what terraforming is concerned here, the situation is divided in 2 cases hopefully listed the right way by the rules:
1: Un-necesary land modifications (building lakes with company HQ in the middle.....or circular hills around the HQ....or writing GOBU IS SMART by lifting the terrain...or any other such stupidities) : FORBIDDEN and listed in the rules as "un-necesary modifications" since I`m pretty sure you can win the game without such things and your score won`t be affected

2: Player decided land modifications(Raising/lowering land for a station or for a section of line...raising or lowering land for a bridge system....for tunnels...for intersections....for cornering .....) There was a huge a debate on weather those things were or weren`t legal. Therefore xOR introduced the terraforming limit and decided: if the player has the patience to do it this way....as long as it is not something at section 1...it`s ok.

I consider this idea to solve the disputes since it is an automatic terraforming limit. Admins do not need to intervene if it isn`t something that it is listed in paragraph 1.
As for the rules, I consider they describe the situation quite good. Ofc if we deny them (Andreas considering that those are un-necesary modifications) we will re-start the debate.
Also...not knowing something is different then willingly breaking the rules and there will always be touchy subjects about the rules NO MATTER how we re-write them.

Some of the rules are designed in a preventive way in order to help us make the player understand how he should play. For example:

If some player entered and built a 3 line route and he starts to make a trench 8 tiles wide (just in case he needs to add more lines later), if the rules would say "terraforming at a bigger level is permitted if you started playing for a short time and do not know any other means of building" , then this player wouldn`t care. Everybody would start saying that they read the rules, but they didn`t think this was too important. The rules are supposed to help a player understand what he must do, but some changes are not required immediately. I hope you understand what I tried to say in this last paragraph, if not, I`ll try to rewrite it ^^

Basically think about driving: In a storm...or in a foggy environment , you are required to lower the speed, but if the police will find you with 50 km/h in a city , they won`t fine you....even if it`s foggy outside. It`s a preventive writing of the rule...

[phmadore]

Thanks for the detailed responses, folks. I understand better now. I want to point out to those disagreeing with Andreas that this player could have built the line without the ditch. I had lines going across that map and I had no need to do what he did.

[alex879ro]

Each player has a different knowledge of the game, and then we got Andreas   He had the time to gain experience so he has a whole different understanding of the game. Unfortunately, you cannot flood the world with OpenTTD knowledge ^^

If such a technique would be possible, we could say goodbye to stupidity, low education, possible to poverty too and a whole range of "plagues" that are ravaging humanity. I can only say I hope that this player will grow and will start to think like you as soon as possible

[Andreas]

He didn`t "built a big trench along the map" The way you say it makes it look like he carved a valley just for the fun of landscaping. He considered landscaping to be necesary in order for his trains to reach maximum speed. It is not bad will. It`s just not knowing that he doesn`t need it.

First of all, that rule explicitly states (I quote it for the 3rd time now)

And as big land level changes are forbidden you are only allowed to do small level changes for a rail stretch. Try to avoid digging a big stretch into the map or levelling much land up just to have your rails on the same height level for a full route, adapt to the land height in some bigger steps instead

So this case is explicitly mentioned there. Also this picture: https://wiki.x-base.info/openttd/rules/pictures/file?get=terraforming_no.png (which I got form the n-ice rule pictures) looks a lot like the screenshot that was posted in the first post. That is why imo it is against the rules (at least in the way they are formulated at the moment)

According to him it is a necesary modification...and I can assure that I don`t think he waited that long in order to terraform just for the fun of it.

I understand, that is why I said:

So in short: yes it is forbidden. It is not considered blocking though, since you are able pass them quite easily. (and they do not seem to be built with the purpose to block.
Personally I think it looks a bit ugly, but if I were an admin and I were called for this, I would probably warn the person to stop it and explain that it is not allowed. Would I reset/kick for it? Probably not...

Note the words "warn" and "explain". (Maybe you are surprised, but am willing to and regularly do share some of my "OpenTTD knowledge" with new players. There are quite some people that will be able to confirm this and also some examples in questions asked here on the forum.)

2: Player decided land modifications(Raising/lowering land for a station or for a section of line...raising or lowering land for a bridge system....for tunnels...for intersections....for cornering .....) There was a huge a debate on weather those things were or weren`t legal. Therefore xOR introduced the terraforming limit and decided: if the player has the patience to do it this way....as long as it is not something at section 1...it`s ok.

This is some really interesting information on the history of the rules of n-ice . I fail to see what it has to do with the question that was asked in the first post though. I see no bridges, no tunnels, no intersection, no corner...

I consider this idea to solve the disputes since it is an automatic terraforming limit. Admins do not need to intervene if it isn`t something that it is listed in paragraph 1.
As for the rules, I consider they describe the situation quite good. Ofc if we deny them (Andreas considering that those are un-necesary modifications) we will re-start the debate.
Also...not knowing something is different then willingly breaking the rules and there will always be touchy subjects about the rules NO MATTER how we re-write them.

First of all, I did not say (at any point)  that it is un-necesary from that player's pov. Also I have been around long enough to know the difference between willingly breaking the rules and not knowing. That is also why I never said that player should be punished. As mentioned before I used the words explain and warn.

I also know, understand and agree that the rules cannot cover all situations. That is why I suggested to remove that line from the rules. Having a situation explicitly mentioned by the rules, but not enforced just gives room for additional discussion. Suppose Phmadore did call an admin ingame: he was clearly bothered by that line and from the current formulation he might think that it is not allowed. Then he would also not be happy, because he calls an admin for something that is in the rules and yet nothing happens.

That is why I made that suggestion. Now to clarify what I mean:
From my pov there are 2 options (they are only suggestions ofc)

• Admins should (when called for such a situation) explain that it is not necessary and how it could be done differently. (of course there are lots of inexperienced players on the servers, so no need for punishment if they are willing to listen.
• Change the detailed rules to something like this:
  Don't make any kind of changes to the land when they are unnecessary for your transports. E.g. don't write logos onto the map or build a large hill to place your HQ on. And of course don't make big land level changes.

There are lots of 'unwritten etiquette rules' in OpenTTD that are not explicitly forbidden, but are followed by most players with some experience and decency. One of those for example is to build double bridges when you cross a track, or warn a player if you cross his road (most even build bridges). Yet I do not see any of those in the normal or detailed rules. That is because the place for guidelines is not the rules (imo). If you want to explicitly mention such things call them "suggestions" or "guidelines for social game play" or something similar.

The only part that I do not understand is where that "immediately" comes from. There is no rush, I am merely making a suggestion.

On a different note, I know the difference between guidelines and rules. That is why I say the place for guidelines is not the rules page. Also there is a big difference between leveling the map and speeding in a snowstorm. Playing OpenTTD (in any way) is unlikely to get you killed (unless you get electrocuted by your own pc or something catches fire or so). About that fining thing: I don't know about other countries, but in the Netherlands you can actually get fined for driving dangerously, even if you break no obvious traffic rules. Also the penalty in such situations is much higher than a simple speeding fine.

Lastly I will try to understand the last post you made, since I see no connection to the thread.
First of all: thank you for your admiration of my knowledge. I am afraid it is too much honor though, there are people around with much more knowledge of game mechanics. Why would I want to flood the world though? I have nothing against stupid people, lots of them simply don't know better. Neither is there a need for everybody to be highly educated. We still need people that have skills in stead of knowledge. Drowning poor people?! Now that is just mean! Rather use the money you were planning on using to flood them for something useful (like maglev routes).

I'm not sure who you mean by "you" in the last sentence, but if you mean me: I don't want all people to think like me, the world would be a very boring place if we all thought the same.

Ps. Was that last post sarcasm or irony? (still not clear on your defenitions of those) Aslo do you consider it proper, or is it filling the thread of a player who had a question with some personal issues?

[alex879ro]

Every remark after the word "Unfortunately" is directed at the situation itself. The "you" is a form of speaking and does not refer to Andreas.

Also...I won`t start to quote because I already have the example from the complaints section where I took my time to answer....and I dunno if you even read it...not to mention answering back. Anyway, I will try to underline the basic:

I did not refer to SPEEDING. Driving with 50 km/h in a blizzard does not mean speeding since the limit in most of the cities is exactly that. Also....I didn`t try to compare driving with OpenTTD....but what you understood is a part of your uniqueness

I compared the way the driving code treats this problem. It doesn`t restrict a specific limit (speed limit) , but simply warns that you should drive slower. It doesn`t say how slow....it doesn`t specify a penalty...it simply a warning for your own safety. Just as maintaining the distance from the car that is in front of you.
It states that you must maintain a good distance which should be increased in severe weather conditions, but it doesn`t specify it. It simply a guideline in the middle of a driving rule book. Also, again...no mention about driving itself...just about how an official rule book treats certain situations.

Also, concerning the last remarks of my post. They simply meant: You cannot expect every new player to have the style and the knowledge of an experienced player. Therefore I`m pretty sure we will continue to see such situations. Our expectations from those rules is that if at least 1 new player bothers to read them, then their mission is done.  The idea is to try to prevent at least a small part of the new players from using terraforming excessively.

Since this post got way way deeper then the original host wanted to know, this is my last reply here. I hope he understood our thinking about such actions