Forum behavour

[Andreas]

I have started this topic because the server discussion was being derailed, and this kind af accusations deserve an answer.

Beul, I will ask you a simple question: Do you want to be banned from the forum? I hope that you will stop turning every topic where both of us comment into an argument.

In my point of view two topics with you recently turned into an argument  because you disregard opinions of others because of the persons expressing them. You say that you move on, yet you keep referencing to things from the past. What motivates people to start a discussion does not influence the value of their arguments.
Since you start taking my posts apart and out of context to turn them into accusations, I will answer each of them for you to place them back in context.

Reasons:
1:

There is absolutely no need for your sarcasm, comparing us to your corrupt parliament, or using grand words that do not even exist!

From what I know remarks based on nationalist purposes are not so good in the forum. I could speak out my oppinions about Netherlands, but that would be off-topic, so please talk without insulting.

I went to far with including "your corrupt" indeed. On the other hand, at that point you  have reacted quite sarcastic to my contributions twice allready!

2: All you did here was to argue. I ask for oppinions to see what you want and instead of that, the topic becomes the following for you:

I agree that town size should be quite low, especially if you decide to start with monorail. I can guarantee that if you don't, the result will be all pax, and maybe a few 2-way coal lines.

Here you seem to fail to note the difference between arguing and discussing in a constructive way. Let me explain:
Imus suggests something, and I agree with that, at this point, you have the opinion of 2 individuals that agree with each-other. Additionally I give a reason for my opinion, which is generally considered as positive in a constructive discussion. Since the whole purpose of your topic was to gather opinions and discussing possibilities, I would expect you to be pleased. Apparently you are not, and you see this as something to attack me about. Please explain why...

Town size low? What does that mean? Are you being specific or am I blind and not seeing the values?

To begin with: maybe I should have said: city size, my mistake there I did not have a config file available at the time I wrote that, neither was the wiki an option because I was typing from my phone. The setting I meant was city size. You could have asked me what I meant in stead of calling it public rephorma (sill no clue what that means) and disregarding it.
As for what low means: since the setting is between 1 and 10, 5 would be considered medium, and 2 or 3 low. Setting it to 1 would be a bit harsh, because there would be no initial difference between towns and cities.
Besides that, in your first post you ask for scenarios not settings. I have searched the definition of a scenario for you: An outline or model of an expected or supposed sequence of events
To explain: a scenario would be something like the following: Server with a small, flat map, with some water, late starting date for monorail, low population, high initial loan, and a high density of industries.

The settings to realize that scenario would be something like: map size between 512 and 256, terrain type flat or verry flat, sea level low, starting date 2010 and so on.
If it were settings you wanted, you should have asked for them. Also it is hard to predict the outcome of the combination of settings, because of that I think a scenario is more useful than settings because you have a global idea of the goal and can adjust the settings to achieve that goal. If you would have asked for a config file I would have been willing to mock up a game and hand you the config. It is hard to discuss the bigger outlines that way though.

3:

Further: not including perf. in the goal might be nice, but there are 2 things I wonder:

No offence, but if you really want me to point out the things that I do not consider proper about your comments: Your wonderings are not part of this topic. This topic was created to discuss the future changes of server 7. The decision to try it without performance was already taken. Why? because of multiple reasons. If you are so curious, I can create a topic to explain my decision or an announcement.

Yes please, I would like it if you would point it out to me, because I see nothing improper here. I do not say that it is a bad thing to disable the perf. part. All I did was express things you might not have considered. You could have sufficed with an answer like: yes I did hear people complain about it, or: no I do not have specific examples, but I think that it might be the case, and I want to test it.

About the scoring part you could have said: I do not consider that important at this time of developing the server, or: we are changeing the system anyway, or you could have ignored it alltogether. It is your right not to answer, or to answer in any way you like, just as it is my proper right to ask. If you go through all the reactions again, at no point I demand an answer, or even mention the fact that you did not answer, because I respect the fact that you do not consider it part of the discussion. That does not however mean that it is in any way improper for me to ask. In adition, I am not the only one that had doubts about that aspect, as you could have seen from the reactions of Imus.

Last but not least: you are not the one to start about staying on topic in a discussion. I remember a recent case in which you did not like that somebody posted an answer to your question in a different topic to stay on topic. Expecting people to do something you fail to do yourself is not a good point. (and also an argument I have recently seen you use against a player)

4:

On the other hand I think a lower train limit will increase the effect of it being a contest of money making lines stimulating to choose your lines well. At the same time it will prevent mass cv cheating by buying trains, without the need of aditional measures.

What is wrong with this? Imus said that he would like it to be a contest of money making lines, and we discuss about what train number goes together with that goal. This is actually an illustration of the difference between scenarios and settings. Imus thinks train numbers should be 'unlimited' (500 is virtually unlimited in a small server) I think they should be 'limited'. You have to agree, with arguments, on the setting being limited or  unlimited, before you can decide the specific number. If imus just went ahead and said 500 in stead of explaining and I said 25 the same way, nobody would understand the reasons for that, and therefor could not react to that in a constructive way.

As I said, agree or disagree. I honestly fail to see the way this is an example, reason or justification for threatening me with a forum ban for turning things into an argument!

5:

You don't have to follow the suggestions, heck you do not even have to ask to begin with.

This is not up to you to decide. This is my decision and I do not advice regarding it, thank you!
Was this another specific example of what train size should be? Or just you wondering about certain aspects of the game.

You left out an important part here, let me quote the complete section for you in order to explain:

If you ask a question, be prepared to listen to the answer, even if it does not come in the exact way you want.
You don't have to follow the suggestions, heck you do not even have to ask to begin with

First if all, of you read what I say in stead of what you think I mean, I agree with you.  yeah really agree!

Secondly, as I have repeated to my own boredom by now, what you asked and what you wanted were 2 different things. You asked for scenarios while what you expected were settings. This in itself is no problem at all. The way you react to it thoug is. In stead saying: please provide settings for your suggestions, you start being sarcastic and saying that we are 'discussing the meaning of life'.

Despite that, I tell you that I do not appreciate your tone, and summarize what has been said earlier. You then go ahead and reply with: 'was that so hard'!
Seriously?!

I took your comment and answered with a smile on my face. And that remark was nothing but irony. I wasn`t shouting or insulting. Yet again, you do not seem to understand the irony.
What bothers me the most is the agressive way you answer whenever you think that you`re attacked or that someone is making you seem a lower man then you consider yourself to be. This wasn`t the case, I can assure you, but yet again, you felt attacked.

I perfectly well understood your irony, and I thought it was misplaced. With arguments I pointed out why, and even took the trouble of translating our opinions into settings for you. The only part that could be considered aggressive about my first reply to your irony was calling you to lazy to read. That was not called for, but neither was your irony. The reason I get irritated with you (note irritated, not aggressive) is your condescending tone, and tendency to  put the blame on others or other circumstances.

Further more the reason for my reply was not that I was 1 of the people it was directed to. If you recall correctly I allso pointed out another topic in which you were condescending in which I had no part. Being negative for no reason does not only insult the people taking part in a discussion, but allso all people reading it and considering to reply or not.
 

Now correct me if I may, but what part of your first post were specific answers, because I still don`t see that part.

Once again, you did not ask for settings, and secondly read my reply #6 again

For my references for small servers: I wrote a few examples of the EXISTING servers which are considered small to prove that there can be more then one option about how to juggle a server . You told me that by saying "small server", I already define most of the settings. Those existing or past servers prove that I don`t define most of the settings.

At no single point in time did I say that most of the settings were defined. What I did say was that if you only want to tweak individual settings it is better to just mock up a server and test and adjust till you are satisfied. What I was trying to point out is that settings cannot be regarded individually, you have to view them in context, which is why determining the outlines before coming to specific settings is a good strategy. there is no need to tell me that there are different possibilities. I allready know that.

I don`t know how you group the servers but a 30 mil goal is small server. By small servers, we are discussing about completion time nevertheless. Would you compare server 9 to server 4? Or even better, to server 5?

My point was, and still is that a 30 million goal server can be a medium goal as well. Steamer world already takes 3 hours, with some adjustments, still leaving the goal at 30 mln I can make it last 6 hours for an average player, THAT is my point, just a goal in cash says nothing.

Tip: A hilly map would increase difficulty, but if you go with a large loan and monorail or maglev trains , it compensates.

And here you exactly illustrate what I already said: settings influence each other, and have to be viewed in context. That is why shouting just some settings and then making that into a server has a really low chance of achieving what you would like to achieve. It is the same as me saying that with doubling train speed you can double the goal and still do it in more or less the same time. So what are you trying to prove here? Or is this just to show that you understand some game mechanics as well?

Another aspect: Me looking for your answers in the previous posts. Maybe you don`t want to consider 2 things:
- it maybe very hard for people to stay and look for the standard settings and then to compensate them with the" aditional settings" because they simply do not have the time or the mood for that

I did not say you have to do that. If you want settings, ask for settings, not for scenarios. If you do not have the time, mood, or whatever for it, ask, and you might just get help. I am more than willing to mock up a game, play around with settings and provide you with a complete config file, and I am quite sure I am not the only one.

- maybe I wanted to hear a full oppinion from everybody. That is why I suggested it in an ironic way with the emot-icons properly placed to clearly show that it was a joke. A joke that you didn`t quite understand.

So what? What part of what I said inhibits other players of expressing their opinions? And joke or not, there were other ways you could have chosen to express yourself. Now, you call it a joke, a while ago it was irony, I call it sarcasm. Still don't see what this has to do with other opinions.

In the end, a last aspect:

If you ask a question, be prepared to listen to the answer, even if it does not come in the exact way you want.

. This is exactly what I told you. Unfortunately, compared to other people , I cannot quit from n-ice whenever I don`t have the necesary time to be here. I have to make time or at least to balance it up. So, as I told you this morning:

You come after a few days absence (probably having some free time) and "alex879ro, I answered your post" ; " alex879ro, there is someone destroying road vehicles on server 5. Oops, it was on BTPro, srry." . If you do have free time, it doesn`t necesary mean that others do too. You don`t see me messaging you everytime I answer a post. Also, if every player would come and flash my name everytime something happens, I and probably any admin would go nuts.  For me and Der_Herr it is especially hard. When an admin is missing, there is someone here most of the times. But for operators, that is not happening. If both me and Der_Herr wouldn`t be here, nobody could replace us. If I wouldn`t be here, the changing of the servers would not happen or it would but extremely slow. If Der_Herr wouldn`t be here, we would have no new coding, no new scoring implemented.

First of all indeed, I came in and alerted you to the fact that I have posted a reply. This had 2 reasons: first of all you were online, you were not in a discussion with anybody at the time, and you did not have any form of afk, busy or otherwise indicating that you were busy. Additionally, you yourself said that you hoped to continue with the setup on Saturday. Therefor I assumed that you expected to have the time to deal with it. The fact that you did not, was not a problem. You said, that you would look at it later, and I accepted that and left you alone.

Then I alerted you on a situation that was occurring. It turned out I made a mistake, and I apologized to you. The reason I chose to alert you was because you were the only one with the needed privileges online without something like busy or afk in your name. The reason I never call der_herr for this kind of stuff is that he has not been involving himself in punishments or setting up servers since I joined this community.

This having been said, I consider that maybe behaving a little more polite and understanding this would be more proper.

Pleas explain what I did that was not polite or understanding? I did not demand anything from you, except that you behave polite. And as I have pointed out a few times earlier: please stop accusing people of stuff you do yourself aswell!

In regards to your point op time and busy I have a quite funny quote:

[2013-12-14 15:41:12] <@alex879ro> unfortunately i got no spare time today to test it, so I asked Chucky
[2013-12-14 15:41:12] <@Der_Herr> oh ok
[2013-12-14 15:41:20] <@Der_Herr> no problem
[2013-12-14 15:41:20] <@alex879ro> chucky, what did you propose
[2013-12-14 15:41:22] <@alex879ro> more exactly
[2013-12-14 15:41:28] <@alex879ro> maybe der_herr can change it now
[2013-12-14 15:41:31] <@alex879ro> so you can do a test
[2013-12-14 15:41:35] <@Der_Herr> just someone test it, and then we can roll it out at least to the cb servers
[2013-12-14 15:42:09] <@alex879ro> that`s what i intend too
[2013-12-14 15:42:13] <@alex879ro> chucky chucky chucky
[2013-12-14 15:42:16] <@Chucky> yes
[2013-12-14 15:42:27] <@alex879ro> can you msg the formula to der_herr in private?

need I say more?

In order to end this argument orderly, please post your reply if you want, then after 24 hours , please delete or change all the replies that contain non-topic comments. I will do the same in order to make this topic to the point.

In order not to derail that topic I moved my reply here. I will edit my replies in the other topics this afternoon.

Ps. Take as much time as you need/like/want to to reply. I'm fine with it, I do not demand anything

[alex879ro]

I have read what you answered and indeed...your decision to move the topic is very good.I will answer this topic too but it requires a much bigger answer, therefore I will take my time.

[alex879ro]

In my point of view two topics with you recently turned into an argument  because you disregard opinions of others because of the persons expressing them. You say that you move on, yet you keep referencing to things from the past. What motivates people to start a discussion does not influence the value of their arguments.
Since you start taking my posts apart and out of context to turn them into accusations, I will answer each of them for you to place them back in context.

I am moving on..... but this doesn`t mean I`m not looking at behaviours in the past and comparing them with the current ones. This isn`t "Taking posts apart". This is a normal way of debating....refering to what you actually say.

I went to far with including "your corrupt" indeed. On the other hand, at that point you  have reacted quite sarcastic to my contributions twice allready!

I guess this is what also angered me and made me ask you about the ban. I never insult someone about the  things that he is born with (Defects of country in which he lives ; Body defects; parent defects) because he can`t change those as much as he would wish. I wish I could change Romania into being a better country....but I can admit to myself that I can`t. I can`t fight a war alone.

Here you seem to fail to note the difference between arguing and discussing in a constructive way. Let me explain:
Imus suggests something, and I agree with that, at this point, you have the opinion of 2 individuals that agree with each-other. Additionally I give a reason for my opinion, which is generally considered as positive in a constructive discussion. Since the whole purpose of your topic was to gather opinions and discussing possibilities, I would expect you to be pleased. Apparently you are not, and you see this as something to attack me about. Please explain why...

I agree with this. Here you are right and I apologise for my behaviour. It was indeed a comment of agreeing and I took it the wrong way.

To begin with: maybe I should have said: city size, my mistake there I did not have a config file available at the time I wrote that, neither was the wiki an option because I was typing from my phone. The setting I meant was city size. You could have asked me what I meant in stead of calling it public rephorma (sill no clue what that means) and disregarding it.
As for what low means: since the setting is between 1 and 10, 5 would be considered medium, and 2 or 3 low. Setting it to 1 would be a bit harsh, because there would be no initial difference between towns and cities.
Besides that, in your first post you ask for scenarios not settings. I have searched the definition of a scenario for you: An outline or model of an expected or supposed sequence of events
To explain: a scenario would be something like the following: Server with a small, flat map, with some water, late starting date for monorail, low population, high initial loan, and a high density of industries.

The settings to realize that scenario would be something like: map size between 512 and 256, terrain type flat or verry flat, sea level low, starting date 2010 and so on.
If it were settings you wanted, you should have asked for them. Also it is hard to predict the outcome of the combination of settings, because of that I think a scenario is more useful than settings because you have a global idea of the goal and can adjust the settings to achieve that goal. If you would have asked for a config file I would have been willing to mock up a game and hand you the config. It is hard to discuss the bigger outlines that way though.

Yes, I do agree that I asked for a scenario. But my comment of discussing public rephorma was ment to be taken in a funny way. From it, I wanted you to understand that I`m requesting for you to re-write your suggestions with numbers so I can understand what you`re talking about.
Example: Low population: I can understand that as 2500-4000 population. Imus can understand it 500 to 1000 and so on. Everybody has different value of "low" this is why i posted that comment. If I would have disregarded your oppinion, I would have just said so like I told to imus in the topic about server 7: From now on, I won`t take into consideration any proposal that has "reduce the goal" in it. The purpose of that comment ment that I want to see numbers in order to understand your oppinions and not at all that I`ll disregard them

Yes please, I would like it if you would point it out to me, because I see nothing improper here. I do not say that it is a bad thing to disable the perf. part. All I did was express things you might not have considered. You could have sufficed with an answer like: yes I did hear people complain about it, or: no I do not have specific examples, but I think that it might be the case, and I want to test it.

About the scoring part you could have said: I do not consider that important at this time of developing the server, or: we are changeing the system anyway, or you could have ignored it alltogether. It is your right not to answer, or to answer in any way you like, just as it is my proper right to ask. If you go through all the reactions again, at no point I demand an answer, or even mention the fact that you did not answer, because I respect the fact that you do not consider it part of the discussion. That does not however mean that it is in any way improper for me to ask. In adition, I am not the only one that had doubts about that aspect, as you could have seen from the reactions of Imus.

Last but not least: you are not the one to start about staying on topic in a discussion. I remember a recent case in which you did not like that somebody posted an answer to your question in a different topic to stay on topic. Expecting people to do something you fail to do yourself is not a good point. (and also an argument I have recently seen you use against a player)

In this comment, I was really annoyed by another phrase in your answer that said that I do not have to take your oppinions into consideration. I`m not some kid that asks because he has nothing to do and then he just goes and does whatever he wants. I ask because I can get valuable oppinions from those threads. Also...I gave importance to Imus`s oppinions because this was his favourite server and I hope it will still be. I actually configured the server with him that evening and I tried to comply to as much of his oppinions as I could. So your oppinions do count. You shouldn`t treat it so harsh as to "you can ignore our oppinions" . Perhaps I can do that...perhaps it would save time, but in the end, the players are the ones who play mostly on these server, not me.
Reasons for taking performance out:
1: The new players have a really hard time with it (Everybody says it, but most of us ignore the importance of new players) OpenTTD players go through a cycle. A lot of the players stop playing it for a while. This is what it happened to me too when I was a simple player. After a while, they re-become interested. Most of them forget or stop getting informed on what the rules mean and on what performance means. Personally, I agree mostly on BTPRO`s oppinion : Cheating can be stopped with admins, not by limiting the whole game with performance. And I also consider performance to be the reason why a lot of the new players went to BTPRO. I wanted to try this for a long time, but unfortunately, the majority was against it. Now we shall see the results
2: We do not have nowhere near as much explanation for performance as we should have and also, we got players who don`t even bother to login. What we can say about those? If they don`t even login, how can we expect them to understand what performance is? Until OpenTTD can introduce a proper way to advertise the Communities, we simply cannot even post a link because nobody can copy it in the modern way. They have to write it. So we simply cannot give them access to enough information for them to understand what performance is.
3: CV is a goal that represents the amount of transportation systems that was built by a player. Performance does not. For performance a players must get out of the normal OpenTTD rythm and build something extra (reaching all the cargos) and so on. This is an extra effort that it is very little rewarded.
4: Even if the Performance criteria was attached to the xShunter package, I don`t know about any other community implementing it then us which makes me ask specific questions. Why did all the others chose to remain to CV only?
5: Performance has been implemented for about a year or even more. During all this time, we never had a counter-test. To have 1 server without it to see if indeed this is what influences the players to quit or at least not play till the end. During all this time, we have added performance to every server which , in my oppinion was a mistake.

What is wrong with this? Imus said that he would like it to be a contest of money making lines, and we discuss about what train number goes together with that goal. This is actually an illustration of the difference between scenarios and settings. Imus thinks train numbers should be 'unlimited' (500 is virtually unlimited in a small server) I think they should be 'limited'. You have to agree, with arguments, on the setting being limited or  unlimited, before you can decide the specific number. If imus just went ahead and said 500 in stead of explaining and I said 25 the same way, nobody would understand the reasons for that, and therefor could not react to that in a constructive way.

As I said, agree or disagree. I honestly fail to see the way this is an example, reason or justification for threatening me with a forum ban for turning things into an argument!

It wasn`t. You replied to me with a lot of anger that you were being specific, and I simply asked you if that is an example of being specific.

[alex879ro]

2nd part of the reply

    If you ask a question, be prepared to listen to the answer, even if it does not come in the exact way you want.
    You don't have to follow the suggestions, heck you do not even have to ask to begin with


First if all, of you read what I say in stead of what you think I mean, I agree with you.  yeah really agree!

Secondly, as I have repeated to my own boredom by now, what you asked and what you wanted were 2 different things. You asked for scenarios while what you expected were settings. This in itself is no problem at all. The way you react to it thoug is. In stead saying: please provide settings for your suggestions, you start being sarcastic and saying that we are 'discussing the meaning of life'.

Despite that, I tell you that I do not appreciate your tone, and summarize what has been said earlier. You then go ahead and reply with: 'was that so hard'!
Seriously?!

Yes, because I wasn`t being sarcastic....I consider it to be a little ironic perhaps...but not sarcastic. And in nowhere near enough for your reaction. I tried to read your oppinions but I simply had no idea of what you were referring too because I have different criterias of appreciating "low" "high" so, my intention with that comment was to ask you to re-write your oppinions...and not "disregard them" as I saw a bit earlier in your comment.

I perfectly well understood your irony, and I thought it was misplaced. With arguments I pointed out why, and even took the trouble of translating our opinions into settings for you. The only part that could be considered aggressive about my first reply to your irony was calling you to lazy to read. That was not called for, but neither was your irony. The reason I get irritated with you (note irritated, not aggressive) is your condescending tone, and tendency to  put the blame on others or other circumstances.

Further more the reason for my reply was not that I was 1 of the people it was directed to. If you recall correctly I allso pointed out another topic in which you were condescending in which I had no part. Being negative for no reason does not only insult the people taking part in a discussion, but allso all people reading it and considering to reply or not.

This type of tone is only for people that know me....and with who I`ve had more then a few conversation. This is not for people which I don`t know. Also...the ironic tone was mostly directed on imus, with who those kind of jokes and ironies are normal, but since you both wrote the same way, I adapted it to both. Those types of comments do not mean anything. They reflect a state in which I`m partially amused of how could this happen. They mean no disregard, no casting blames. It was absolutely no blames. I was tired , tried to read your comments...and my head was turning in "low" values and "high" values.

I know this maybe off-topic, but these are the ways in which I discuss with Imus. I hope that by seeing them, maybe you can understand why I chose to reply in that way.

In channel OpenTTD:
[19:43] *** imus (~imus@94-224-82-251.access.telenet.be) joined
[19:43] *** ChanServ sets channel #openttd mode +o imus
[19:44] <@imus> hi alex =D
[19:44] <~alex879ro> oh no
[19:44] <~alex879ro> hi imus =D
[19:44] <~alex879ro> oh no
[19:44] <~alex879ro> hi imus =D
[19:44] <@imus> oh, wrong chat XD
[19:44] <~alex879ro> doesn`t matter

After moving to channel OpenTTD.Chat

[19:44] <@imus> hi alex (in right chat) =D
[19:44] <@imus> lol
[19:45] <~alex879ro> hi imus (in the right chat) =D
[19:45] <@imus> XD

This is irony. Totally different from sarcasm. He knows that I hate him flashing my name everytime he joins. But he does it and I take it with amusement. I don`t think any less of him for doing it. We`re both amusing of the type of salute that imus uses

    Now correct me if I may, but what part of your first post were specific answers, because I still don`t see that part.

Once again, you did not ask for settings, and secondly read my reply #6 again

I did not ask for them...that`s true...but in your first answers, you told me that you gave me specific answers, but I failed to see them.

Quote

    For my references for small servers: I wrote a few examples of the EXISTING servers which are considered small to prove that there can be more then one option about how to juggle a server . You told me that by saying "small server", I already define most of the settings. Those existing or past servers prove that I don`t define most of the settings.


At no single point in time did I say that most of the settings were defined. What I did say was that if you only want to tweak individual settings it is better to just mock up a server and test and adjust till you are satisfied. What I was trying to point out is that settings cannot be regarded individually, you have to view them in context, which is why determining the outlines before coming to specific settings is a good strategy. there is no need to tell me that there are different possibilities. I allready know that.

Understood

    I don`t know how you group the servers but a 30 mil goal is small server. By small servers, we are discussing about completion time nevertheless. Would you compare server 9 to server 4? Or even better, to server 5?

My point was, and still is that a 30 million goal server can be a medium goal as well. Steamer world already takes 3 hours, with some adjustments, still leaving the goal at 30 mln I can make it last 6 hours for an average player, THAT is my point, just a goal in cash says nothing.

Quote

    Tip: A hilly map would increase difficulty, but if you go with a large loan and monorail or maglev trains , it compensates.

And here you exactly illustrate what I already said: settings influence each other, and have to be viewed in context. That is why shouting just some settings and then making that into a server has a really low chance of achieving what you would like to achieve. It is the same as me saying that with doubling train speed you can double the goal and still do it in more or less the same time. So what are you trying to prove here? Or is this just to show that you understand some game mechanics as well?

Understood

    Another aspect: Me looking for your answers in the previous posts. Maybe you don`t want to consider 2 things:
    - it maybe very hard for people to stay and look for the standard settings and then to compensate them with the" aditional settings" because they simply do not have the time or the mood for that


I did not say you have to do that. If you want settings, ask for settings, not for scenarios. If you do not have the time, mood, or whatever for it, ask, and you might just get help. I am more than willing to mock up a game, play around with settings and provide you with a complete config file, and I am quite sure I am not the only one.

So actually, all that, including this:

-goal: TEST IT: one 30minute game with the settings you want to use for the server will tell all you need to know.

ment that in fact , you`d do a test for me and tell me the result? Then why write it like this "TEST IT" ? Hard to believe this was your original intention....but ok.
Also...I`m not a fan of testing a server a million times before implementation because it wastes a lot of time which I don`t have and can be done much simpler. I doubt that testing server configurations everytime you want to update the settings of a server is something that anybody would want to do.

    - maybe I wanted to hear a full oppinion from everybody. That is why I suggested it in an ironic way with the emot-icons properly placed to clearly show that it was a joke. A joke that you didn`t quite understand.

So what? What part of what I said inhibits other players of expressing their opinions? And joke or not, there were other ways you could have chosen to express yourself. Now, you call it a joke, a while ago it was irony, I call it sarcasm. Still don't see what this has to do with other opinions.

Irony; joke with irony; Ironic joke - a way in which to express something that doesn`t please you, but in a funny...showing that even if it dis-pleases you, it doesn`t upset you so you`re willing to let the owner of the idea to correct his idea and tell it again. (Done between friends, people who know each other for some time)

Sarcasm: Superior way of treating someone that you consider to be less man than you...or stupider then you. It also goes into association with ignorance. Usable with persons that you do not want to take contact with, but you`re forced to . (Done between different people who regretably meet where one of them (usually the stupidest) tries to prove that he`s superior....so the other treats him with sarcasm)

    This having been said, I consider that maybe behaving a little more polite and understanding this would be more proper.

Pleas explain what I did that was not polite or understanding? I did not demand anything from you, except that you behave polite. And as I have pointed out a few times earlier: please stop accusing people of stuff you do yourself aswell!

Bothering someone even if there are official ways to contact the admin team is considered impolite. This is what I tried to describe here. I simply tried to ignore that outburst, but afterwards you ask me to be polite. Sorry, but in my oppinion an ironic reply is quite polite....while bothering someone with my own personal problems in the forum with him  is not so polite (My oppinion)

[2013-12-14 15:41:12] <@alex879ro> unfortunately i got no spare time today to test it, so I asked Chucky
[2013-12-14 15:41:12] <@Der_Herr> oh ok
[2013-12-14 15:41:20] <@Der_Herr> no problem
[2013-12-14 15:41:20] <@alex879ro> chucky, what did you propose
[2013-12-14 15:41:22] <@alex879ro> more exactly
[2013-12-14 15:41:28] <@alex879ro> maybe der_herr can change it now
[2013-12-14 15:41:31] <@alex879ro> so you can do a test
[2013-12-14 15:41:35] <@Der_Herr> just someone test it, and then we can roll it out at least to the cb servers
[2013-12-14 15:42:09] <@alex879ro> that`s what i intend too
[2013-12-14 15:42:13] <@alex879ro> chucky chucky chucky
[2013-12-14 15:42:16] <@Chucky> yes
[2013-12-14 15:42:27] <@alex879ro> can you msg the formula to der_herr in private?

I honestly think that here you`re entering a world that you do not know, but you consider that seeing a mere fragment of it describes the whole situation.
But since you brought it up, I can offer you the required explanation.

Chucky has been telling both me and Der_Herr about his idea for scoring. Der_Herr has a lot of activities to do and doesn`t always have the time to reply. In that day, both of them were online and Der_Herr replied to me and asked me to test something. Since I didn`t have anytime, but we were in a time crisis because Der_Herr was leaving on vacation till the end of the year, I considered more important to contact Chucky and to ask him to do a test since he insisted a lot about his algorythm. Afterwards there was some bad communication between them (formula was different at chucky then at der_herr) so I asked him to msg it to him. This was an important situation, otherwise the new scoring would not have been implemented until January 1st. I wasn`t polite there and I know it, but I considered it is ok to do it sincer that was an emergency to correlate both Chucky and Der_Herr for the scoring that both of them developed. As a result , after this , they talked on their own and the scoring was implemented and tested.

I did this for a specific purpose, not because Chucky didn`t answer to me, but because they already tried to talk themselves, but when one was here , the other one wasn`t. I knew the whole story...so when I saw them both there, i tried to connect them. I would have helped too, but they caught me with an important project in a moment when I didn`t have time.

In order not to derail that topic I moved my reply here. I will edit my replies in the other topics this afternoon.

I understood and agreed

Sorry if there are some odd phrases, but this reply is way too big to correct the spelling.

[imus]

Well from what I understood is that Alex had a difficult time expressing what he means exactly in the way he intends to do so.
I'm putting this all in the language barrier so I tend to ignore everything negative and try to find out what he is trying to say which is why I usually don't care about any unintended insults or whatever.

I do see how people can misinterpret most of the things and think of them a lot worse then their intention. So for me nothing really bad happened except a misunderstanding

Also apology accepted from my part. ^.^ I hope Andreas can come to the same conclusion

[Andreas]

First of all my reason for replying to your post in the initial s7 change thread was because you (in my pov unjustly) threatened me with a ban and had several 'reasons' for that. (most of which you stated now was a mistake on your side) Therefor I started this topic to reply to those. The reason I did not reply earlier was because I did not want to waste more of my own, or your time on this matter and not to give this thread more attention than it deserves.
Clearly your view on this is different and you expected a reply. I will now give you the reply you asked for.

I am moving on..... but this doesn`t mean I`m not looking at behaviours in the past and comparing them with the current ones. This isn`t "Taking posts apart". This is a normal way of debating....refering to what you actually say.

Indeed refering to what I say is a normal way of debating. By taking all my quotes out of context and putting them in a certain order you create a certain suggestion though. That is what I mean by taking my posts apart. Later on I will give you a few examples how bad misplaced quotes can make a person look.

I went to far with including "your corrupt" indeed. On the other hand, at that point you  have reacted quite sarcastic to my contributions twice allready!

I guess this is what also angered me and made me ask you about the ban. I never insult someone about the  things that he is born with (Defects of country in which he lives ; Body defects; parent defects) because he can`t change those as much as he would wish. I wish I could change Romania into being a better country....but I can admit to myself that I can`t. I can`t fight a war alone.

If this line was the reason for asking me about a possible ban, then why do you list all other things you quoted as 'reasons'? (To me it seemed, and still seems like you simply dislike the fact that I disagree with you on certain points and took this as an excuse.) Also it was not meant as an insult. In my point of view, you live in Romania, that makes the Romanian government your government, whether you agree with them or not, whether you voted for them or not. I am truly sorry if you were insulted by me saying that they are your goverment though. There is no need however to involve personal defects into this discussion, simply because it was not part of it. (This rather seems like an attempt to make it clear that I am in the wrong here and you would never do such a thing)

I agree with this. Here you are right and I apologise for my behaviour. It was indeed a comment of agreeing and I took it the wrong way.

Glad we agree about this. (Why call it "reason 2" though?)

To begin with: maybe I should have said: city size, my mistake there I did not have a config file available at the time I wrote that... [Cut because of lenght]...It is hard to discuss the bigger outlines that way though.

Yes, I do agree that I asked for a scenario. But my comment of discussing public rephorma was ment to be taken in a funny way. From it, I wanted you to understand that I`m requesting for you to re-write your suggestions with numbers so I can understand what you`re talking about.
Example: Low population: I can understand that as 2500-4000 population. Imus can understand it 500 to 1000 and so on. Everybody has different value of "low" this is why i posted that comment. If I would have disregarded your oppinion, I would have just said so like I told to imus in the topic about server 7: From now on, I won`t take into consideration any proposal that has "reduce the goal" in it. The purpose of that comment ment that I want to see numbers in order to understand your oppinions and not at all that I`ll disregard them

With disregard in this case I meant that you did not even look at (or at least did not reply to) any of the specifics of the post because you did not like the way they were presented in. You don't like having to figure out settings, I don't like having to figure out what you mean. In stead of trying to be funny you could have asked me what I mean by low. That way we can have a constructive conversation in stead of me having to figure out what you mean.

Yes please, I would like it if you would point it out to me, because I see nothing improper here... [cut due to length]...  Expecting people to do something you fail to do yourself is not a good point. (and also an argument I have recently seen you use against a player)

In this comment, I was really annoyed by another phrase in your answer that said that I do not have to take your oppinions into consideration. I`m not some kid that asks because he has nothing to do and then he just goes and does whatever he wants. I ask because I can get valuable oppinions from those threads. Also...I gave importance to Imus`s oppinions because this was his favourite server and I hope it will still be. I actually configured the server with him that evening and I tried to comply to as much of his oppinions as I could. So your oppinions do count. You shouldn`t treat it so harsh as to "you can ignore our oppinions" . Perhaps I can do that...perhaps it would save time, but in the end, the players are the ones who play mostly on these server, not me.

You did not give me any reason here why it is improper for me to wonder stuff. Still, you used this as 'reason 3'. (May I assume from this that reason 3 also does not exist?)

I did not say or think that you ask because you have nothing to do. What I said was that you ask a question in a different way than you intended and then pretend that we are the ones that give you useless answers. (if you did not consider them useless, why not reply to them?) We took the time to think about your questions and answer them, just as you took the time to ask. That is why I consider it proper to actually read them. (did you really read them?)

Thanks for explaining your pov on performance in the next part. The question still remains why you considered it improper and why you did not explain it back then or simply stated that you do not consider it part of that discussion.

What is wrong with this? Imus said that he would like it to be a contest of money making lines, and we discuss about what train number goes together with that goal. This is actually an illustration of the difference between scenarios and settings. Imus thinks train numbers should be 'unlimited' (500 is virtually unlimited in a small server) I think they should be 'limited'. You have to agree, with arguments, on the setting being limited or  unlimited, before you can decide the specific number. If imus just went ahead and said 500 in stead of explaining and I said 25 the same way, nobody would understand the reasons for that, and therefor could not react to that in a constructive way.

As I said, agree or disagree. I honestly fail to see the way this is an example, reason or justification for threatening me with a forum ban for turning things into an argument!

It wasn`t. You replied to me with a lot of anger that you were being specific, and I simply asked you if that is an example of being specific.

First of all this is a lie! You did not ask if this was an example of being specific. You listed it as reason #4 of things I did wrong and that justify you asking me if I want to get banned. You say yourself though that this is not a reason. This brings the balance up to this point to 3 out of 4 reasons being outright bullshit and 1 example where you were offended by the word "your". )

You overgeneralize the specific part here. At no point in time did I say that all of my own or the other replies were specific. What I did say was that all of the specifics mentioned in my second post on that thread (up to the word additionally) were written in the first reply or in the replies of Imus before my second reply. The fact that you did not seem to recognize any of that gave me the impression that you did not properly read them. This is what I meant by disregarding posts just because they are not in the way you wanted them.

What gave you the impression that I replied with anger?

[Andreas]

part 2:

*cut due to length* Despite that, I tell you that I do not appreciate your tone, and summarize what has been said earlier. You then go ahead and reply with: 'was that so hard'!
Seriously?!

Yes, because I wasn`t being sarcastic....I consider it to be a little ironic perhaps...but not sarcastic. And in nowhere near enough for your reaction. I tried to read your oppinions but I simply had no idea of what you were referring too because I have different criterias of appreciating "low" "high" so, my intention with that comment was to ask you to re-write your oppinions...and not "disregard them" as I saw a bit earlier in your comment.

If it was not hard for me to summarize it, it should not be hard for you to do the same (you do not seem to have trouble getting the information that suits you)
Apparently we have a  different view on what is enough to trigger a reaction. You considered my reply to harsh, I consider your threat to ban me as way to harsh and I also fail to see the need to involve bodily defects into the matter. Different points of view are normal and not a problem at all. The reason that remark annoyed me was that I took the time to summarize it for you and in stead of constructive feedback or a thank-you I get this... About the disregarding part, allready explaned that earlier in this post.

I perfectly well understood your irony, and I thought it was misplaced. ...*cut* Being negative for no reason does not only insult the people taking part in a discussion, but allso all people reading it and considering to reply or not.

This type of tone is only for people that know me....and with who I`ve had more then a few conversation. This is not for people which I don`t know. Also...the ironic tone was mostly directed on imus, with who those kind of jokes and ironies are normal, but since you both wrote the same way, I adapted it to both. Those types of comments do not mean anything. They reflect a state in which I`m partially amused of how could this happen. They mean no disregard, no casting blames. It was absolutely no blames. I was tired , tried to read your comments...and my head was turning in "low" values and "high" values.

You already explained why you used that tone and we have different opinions on that matter. As I said earlier different opinions are not a problem. I will simply ask you not to use that way of talking when you feel the need to reply to me in the future.
The part about the condescending tone and blame were meant in general and as a reply to you saying that I "answer aggressive whenever I feel attacked". At the bottom of this post I will place some of the examples of what I mean by that.

I know this maybe off-topic, but these are the ways in which I discuss with Imus. I hope that by seeing them, maybe you can understand why I chose to reply in that way.

I appreciate that you try to explain it to me and I already noticed that you consider it proper. The only thing  can say in reply to that is to repeat: please do not use that tone in the future when you reply to me.

I did not ask for them...that`s true...but in your first answers, you told me that you gave me specific answers, but I failed to see them.

To repeat myself: the specific part of my first post was in the beginning of my second post (still there to read).

At no single point in time did I say that most of the settings were defined. What I did say was that if you only want to tweak individual settings it is better to just mock up a server and test and adjust till you are satisfied. What I was trying to point out is that settings cannot be regarded individually, you have to view them in context, which is why determining the outlines before coming to specific settings is a good strategy. there is no need to tell me that there are different possibilities. I allready know that.

Understood

Great

My point was, and still is that a 30 million goal server can be a medium goal as well. Steamer world already takes 3 hours, with some adjustments, still leaving the goal at 30 mln I can make it last 6 hours for an average player, THAT is my point, just a goal in cash says nothing.

And here you exactly illustrate what I already said: settings influence each other, and have to be viewed in context. That is why shouting just some settings and then making that into a server has a really low chance of achieving what you would like to achieve. It is the same as me saying that with doubling train speed you can double the goal and still do it in more or less the same time. So what are you trying to prove here? Or is this just to show that you understand some game mechanics as well?

Understood

Nice

I did not say you have to do that. If you want settings, ask for settings, not for scenarios. If you do not have the time, mood, or whatever for it, ask, and you might just get help. I am more than willing to mock up a game, play around with settings and provide you with a complete config file, and I am quite sure I am not the only one.

So actually, all that, including this:

-goal: TEST IT: one 30minute game with the settings you want to use for the server will tell all you need to know.

ment that in fact , you`d do a test for me and tell me the result? Then why write it like this "TEST IT" ? Hard to believe this was your original intention....but ok.
Also...I`m not a fan of testing a server a million times before implementation because it wastes a lot of time which I don`t have and can be done much simpler. I doubt that testing server configurations everytime you want to update the settings of a server is something that anybody would want to do.

I did not pretend that "TEST IT" means that I was going to do a teat for you. What I said and what I meant was that if you ask me to, I will consider testing it, just as I replied with settings when you asked me for settings.
About testing a server a million times: I did not say or imply that that was needed in any way. What I did say was "1 game". If you ask a good player to do 1 test (in single player) with the decided settings then you can get a very good idea of what goal is reachable in a certain time frame. That way you can immediately start the server with a realistic goal and settings. IMO this is much less work than changeing a server once it is implemented. (because at that point it needs to be shut down, changed and restarted). Also there are other people that consider tests important. The Btpro you like to refer to have been testing with 1.4.0 for quite some time now to make sure they are ready when the new version comes out.

So what? What part of what I said inhibits other players of expressing their opinions? And joke or not, there were other ways you could have chosen to express yourself. Now, you call it a joke, a while ago it was irony, I call it sarcasm. Still don't see what this has to do with other opinions.

Irony; joke with irony; Ironic joke - a way in which to express something that doesn`t please you, but in a funny...showing that even if it dis-pleases you, it doesn`t upset you so you`re willing to let the owner of the idea to correct his idea and tell it again. (Done between friends, people who know each other for some time)

Sarcasm: Superior way of treating someone that you consider to be less man than you...or stupider then you. It also goes into association with ignorance. Usable with persons that you do not want to take contact with, but you`re forced to . (Done between different people who regretably meet where one of them (usually the stupidest) tries to prove that he`s superior....so the other treats him with sarcasm)

Thank you for the info about sarcasm and irony. (I have a better example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJp2XAWma_I )

This is still no answer to my question: "What part of what I said inhibits other players of expressing their opinions?" (ps. don't bother to answer it is a rhetorical question)

Pleas explain what I did that was not polite or understanding? I did not demand anything from you, except that you behave polite. And as I have pointed out a few times earlier: please stop accusing people of stuff you do yourself aswell!

Bothering someone even if there are official ways to contact the admin team is considered impolite. This is what I tried to describe here. I simply tried to ignore that outburst, but afterwards you ask me to be polite. Sorry, but in my oppinion an ironic reply is quite polite....while bothering someone with my own personal problems in the forum with him  is not so polite (My oppinion)

I thought that the irc channel #openttd.chat was the official way to contact the admin team? What outburst? What personal problems?

I honestly think that here you`re entering a world that you do not know, but you consider that seeing a mere fragment of it describes the whole situation.
But since you brought it up, I can offer you the required explanation.

Chucky has been telling both me and Der_Herr about his idea for scoring. Der_Herr has a lot of activities to do and doesn`t always have the time to reply. In that day, both of them were online and Der_Herr replied to me and asked me to test something. Since I didn`t have anytime, but we were in a time crisis because Der_Herr was leaving on vacation till the end of the year, I considered more important to contact Chucky and to ask him to do a test since he insisted a lot about his algorythm. Afterwards there was some bad communication between them (formula was different at chucky then at der_herr) so I asked him to msg it to him. This was an important situation, otherwise the new scoring would not have been implemented until January 1st. I wasn`t polite there and I know it, but I considered it is ok to do it sincer that was an emergency to correlate both Chucky and Der_Herr for the scoring that both of them developed. As a result , after this , they talked on their own and the scoring was implemented and tested.

I did this for a specific purpose, not because Chucky didn`t answer to me, but because they already tried to talk themselves, but when one was here , the other one wasn`t. I knew the whole story...so when I saw them both there, i tried to connect them. I would have helped too, but they caught me with an important project in a moment when I didn`t have time.

Actually this exactly illustrates my point. I considered it polite and proper to alert you that I posted a reply because you had stated that you expected to have time to implement the server on that specific day. Therefore I considered that it was important that you know that I had posted more suggestions. I also only mentioned your name once on irc and when you replied that you would look at it later I did not say anything more about it. The reason I pasted that log of you calling Chucky and Der_Herr was that it was a similar situation imo. I did not pretend that you were in the wrong there, I meant to point out that you say that I am wrong while you do the same thing.

In conclusion: you threatened me with a ban and listed 5 reasons for that. From that 5 reasons only 1 might be an actual reason. The rest is just disagreements/misunderstandings. For the unintended insults: 'Apology' accepted.

[Andreas]

Lastly the promissed examples of arogance and double standards:

• On the newspost for the inter comunity tournament signup:

The players interested in participating in the tournament, please talk to admins Geert and Batt. They can give you the password of the server.
Also, it is up to them to choose the team which plays, so we ask you not to transform this into a drama if some of you will not be selected.

For the first tournament N-Ice almost did not have a complete team. Also there was no practicing. Still you feel the need to ask players not to transform things into a drama... That is the kind of behavior I refer to when I say "arrogant" or "condescending"

• In the discussion about money transfer:

I am sorry Kwissy, but you are not the one to decide here. Unfortunately, you are nothing here except someone with an obsession.

You assume that he has an obsession yet the only one that keeps referring to his punishment is you. I think you have an obsession to deny that everything you personally do not consider a problem.

• In the same topic:

@others Apologise for my agressive attitude , but I`ve really had enough of this guy and his attitude.
http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=488.msg2743;boardseen#new

So I guess the following applies to other persons but not to you?

From my point of view....anger should not be considered in this topic. I was angry too for him activating my filters....It was like "Oh...you don`t want to answer....not to worry, i`ll make you." But yet again....i answered all his questions .
If somebody comits a crime cause he was angry.....i don`t see the judges lowering his punishment just because he was angry. And beside....only the half month is for the attitude. Would be better to think why he got the 2 months first and act accordingly. Perhaps if he did that, he wouldn`t have gotten the 2 weeks extra.
Yes, i`m sure that anger management is usefull, but not in my opinion. Some people can hold their anger...and some do not...
I think that anger behaviour being forgiven is not fair for people who control themselves. It`s like giving the guilty person a reason to behave like that...saying...oh...poort guy...he`s just angry.

(note some additional examples of you doing things out of anger in the posts above. In your own words it would not be fair for people who control themselves if I forgive you for that. Luckily, in my brain forgiving does not work that way, so I will still forgive you )

• Continuing in the Kwissy topic:

Kwissy, you lied when we caught you cheating, you`re lying now. You want to do a little psychology to see if in fact you were obsessed with the idea of money transfer?

You accuse a player of lying without any proove. As a matter of fact the logs later did proove that he did not lie. All he did was to disagree with the fact that it was cheating. He did argue, maybe he wasted your time in your pov, but he did not lie. Also how could you be so sure that he was obsessed? (And thus is lying in that post about not being obsessed) Did you look into his brain? Are you a psychic?  (If you want to I can also do a little psychology on your behavior)

• Also in that topic:

Beul, you`re making me agressive again. I asked him to cut it out with the idea.

Once again, I am not allowed to become "agressive" (by the way imo I never was agressive on the forum) but you are! And that for just agreeing with a player!

• In the quotes topic:

Update from the same 2 geniuses
[22:57] <+OTTD-1> cobra jj (Red): god has spoken...
[22:58] <+OTTD-1> SteamCrafters Darren (Grey): has he also announced your retarded?
[22:58] <+OTTD-1> SteamCrafters Darren (Grey): cool story bro

Sarcastically calling players geniuses. (this is sarcasm right?) Also in stead of warning SteamCrafters for insulting cobra jj (calling him retarded is an insult) you post the "funny" remark here. Judging form your reaction to "your corrupt government" you think it less funny when it happens to you!

To conclude, the double standards:

[2014-01-28 01:52:40] <Andreas> also if it is not a problem for you if everybody builds like that why don't you want to remove it from the rules?
[2014-01-28 01:53:03] <Andreas> you did not answer that question
[2014-01-28 01:53:48] <~alex879ro> v[02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:53:49] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:53:50] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:53:51] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:53:52] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:53:52] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:53:54] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:53:55] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:53:56] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:53:57] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:53:57] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:53:59] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:00] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:01] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:01] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:02] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:04] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:05] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:06] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:07] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:07] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:09] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:10] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:11] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:12] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:12] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:14] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:15] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:16] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:16] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:17] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:19] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:20] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:21] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <Andreas> besides, you say that I don't understand new players. My question is how are new players supposed to know which rules are "guidelines" and which ones are rules?
[2014-01-28 01:54:21] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re not
[2014-01-28 01:54:22] <~alex879ro> [02:39] <~alex879ro> they`re supposed to try to respect each rule
[2014-01-28 01:54:24] <~alex879ro> now you see it?
[2014-01-28 01:54:57] <Andreas> and you dare to call me annoying
[2014-01-28 01:55:21] <Andreas> most people would consider what you did there quite childish
[2014-01-28 01:55:48] <~alex879ro> you`d be surprised to see what most people consider about taking the subject of a conversation in a circle
[2014-01-28 01:55:53] <~alex879ro> not understanding anything...
[2014-01-28 01:56:01] <~alex879ro> making the other person look in the forums
[2014-01-28 01:56:10] <~alex879ro> for quotes to prove you that you were wrong...
[2014-01-28 01:56:28] <~alex879ro> and afterwards you consider a reply to be childish
[2014-01-28 01:56:39] <~alex879ro> after saying that I did not answer
[2014-01-28 01:56:45] <Andreas> no, I consider spamming childish
[2014-01-28 01:59:44] <Andreas> alex879ro, you are the one that goes in circles. Your answer implies that if you are called for such a situation by a player you have to explain that it is not allowed
[2014-01-28 02:01:11] <Andreas> also, you can agree or disagree, but if I start spamming like you did, you would most likely kick me
[2014-01-28 02:01:21] <Andreas> or not alex879ro?
[2014-01-28 02:01:49] <~alex879ro> @Andreas weather you can understand what a prevention rule means.....and how to behave in such a situation, it is not my problem...I consider I have answered to your every question until the following circle
[2014-01-28 02:02:12] <~alex879ro> as I said...this conversation is over...
[2014-01-28 02:03:13] *** alex879ro changed nick to alex879ro|playing
[2014-01-28 02:15:56] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> also, you can agree or disagree, but if I start spamming like you did, you would most likely kick me
[2014-01-28 02:15:56] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> or not alex879ro?
[2014-01-28 02:15:57] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> also, you can agree or disagree, but if I start spamming like you did, you would most likely kick me
[2014-01-28 02:15:57] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> or not alex879ro?
[2014-01-28 02:15:58] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> also, you can agree or disagree, but if I start spamming like you did, you would most likely kick me
[2014-01-28 02:15:58] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> or not alex879ro?
[2014-01-28 02:15:58] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> also, you can agree or disagree, but if I start spamming like you did, you would most likely kick me
[2014-01-28 02:15:58] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> or not alex879ro?
[2014-01-28 02:15:59] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> also, you can agree or disagree, but if I start spamming like you did, you would most likely kick me
[2014-01-28 02:15:59] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> or not alex879ro?
[2014-01-28 02:15:59] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> also, you can agree or disagree, but if I start spamming like you did, you would most likely kick me
[2014-01-28 02:15:59] <Andreas> [02:01] <Andreas> or not alex879ro?
[2014-01-28 02:16:14] <Andreas> probably not, good for you
[2014-01-28 02:23:07] *** alex879ro|playing sets channel #openttd.chat mode +b *!~Tyrion@s5375406a.adsl.online.nl
[2014-01-28 02:23:07] *** you were kicked from #openttd.chat by alex879ro|playing (Kick!)
[2014-01-28 02:23:17] Cannot join channel (You're banned)

Admittedly it was not really mature form my side to paste that line 6 times. I understand that spamming is annoying, but the thing that strikes me here is the fact that apparently he has the right to do it 12 times and if I do the same thing it is worth a ban of a week...

[2014-01-28 02:24:34] <Andreas> thanks for proving my poit
[2014-01-28 02:25:08] <~alex879ro|playing> useless spamming combined with flashing my name
[2014-01-28 02:25:31] <~alex879ro|playing> not to prove anything.....just to do it + disturbing someone on IRC
[2014-01-28 02:25:31] <Andreas> which was different from what you did in what way?
[2014-01-28 02:25:48] <~alex879ro|playing> no offence...but we`re not gonna get into crazy argument again
[2014-01-28 02:25:55] <Andreas> oh I know, the way where you are netAdmin and I am not
[2014-01-28 02:26:14] <~alex879ro|playing> I pin-pointed a reply which you were claiming I did not answer
[2014-01-28 02:26:37] <~alex879ro|playing> I did it in order to prove that you were claiming a wrong things for 99999th time <---I am sure in your mind it is needed to spam my whole screen to proove a point
[2014-01-28 02:26:45] <~alex879ro|playing> you did it pointlessly <---- No, you proved my point that it is annoying and childish for which I thank you!
[2014-01-28 02:26:58] <~alex879ro|playing> and also, after I told you that the conversation is over
[2014-01-28 02:27:18] <Andreas> yes I am sure you had a valid reason to paste it 15 + times
[2014-01-28 02:28:15] <~alex879ro|playing> I pointed it 12 times
[2014-01-28 02:28:19] <~alex879ro|playing> not 15 + times
[2014-01-28 02:28:27] <Andreas> like that matters
[2014-01-28 02:28:32] <~alex879ro|playing> yes, it does <--- so people, if you want to prove a point 12 lines is ok, 15 is too much (and if it is directed at Alex 6 is too much

[/list]

[alex879ro]

No offence Andreas, but this is my final reply to you. You are starting to become very annoying, and I think you kinda crossed the limit:

1st quote: The final team was decided by Geert and Batt. It is not up to you to declare if we had players or not. Also, the fact that you know certain specific insides of the n-ice community but you start posting them publicly is something that worries me. Way more then your accusation of arogance because of the frustration caused my decision from last evening.

2nd quote: Kwissy was banned for cheating. Turning from such an action to a normal player and more importantly to someone who helps the n-ice community took a while...but I`m glad that he did it. After the ban he had a period when he insisted to change the money transfer several times. I can justify my answer to Kwissy if he requests it, or probably to any other player, but not to you. I simply do not consider that you deserve a justification after your recent behaviour. Also, asking me 7-8 times for something of which I already said I do not agree, kinda seems pointless, don`t you agree?

3rd quote makes absolutely no sense. You quoted a post from a different topic of the forum and placed it in a board where a player accused Kwissy of cheating the 2nd time. I researched and found no evidence that Kwissy would have done such a thing.

4th quote refers again to something from another topic: You consider that you`re making a point quoting my answers from my replies in all the forum?
Or perhaps we have someone with a new obsession ? Since from what I remember, the replies that you posted are from 2-3 different topics, I can only think that you researched all of them?

6th quote: not even worth bothering answering? Kwissy cheated once for which we still have the proof, then that topic was referring to another player complaining about him? Did you think about that? Or again, frustration problem?
 
7th quote: yes, I consider I have the right to be angry while you don`t. You want to know why? Because I have the obligation to follow the n-ice protocols even in the case of annoying people like you. People who track the whole forum in order to try to make an interesting debate about somebody.
You want to know why again? I have never bothered you on IRC. About you bothering me could we say the same thing?

8th quote : The funny quotes section is made to post quotes in a friendly ironic way. I see nothing friendly between me and you. Also, your obsession for always warning and interfering in the fun of 2 players worries me.... The same as quoting only a part of the post in order to try to make a point.

And finally the 9th quote which is the most pointless one. I must ask you...are you blind? I had that impression yesterday....I have it again now since you posted it here.

But let me breath some fresh air and explain it again...for the 17th time:

I already answered to your questions last evening....and you were still asking them. How many times do you consider I have to answer a question so you can understand it? Also, do you consider that my time is unlimited each time you want to annoy me?  Therefore, you actually got me angry enough with your questions that I repeated the previous answer to you. It wasn`t spam. It wasn`t pointless. It was posted to show you that maybe you got a problem since you`re asking the same question 2-3 times. And it would have been good to happen with 1 question.

However, when it comes to your post....you did out of.....I don`t even know what it was. You felt the need to show me that you can repeat replies, BUT WITHOUT A REASON...which is spamming. Combined with flashing my name without a reason and your recent behaviour of bothering most of the people on the channel, it resulted in my telling you that you need a break from that channel.

After all the _______ justifications that you made write here AGAIN, even if I told them to you last evening, I can only concur that my judging of your behaviour was correct. I`m pretty sure you can understand the difference between 15 replies(more or less, I didn`t count them) WITH A REASON: designed to show anger because you were becoming very annoying and pretending not to see my answer and the 6 replies WITHOUT A REASON and posted only to show the muscles...or I have no idea why.

Now my warning to you. Either you cut it out and take that break, or I will enforce the break on you. Bothering me is included.

As a justification to you: Your behaviour recently has been annoying for the people on the channel. It appears to me that you have got a lot of free time. Well, NOT EVERYBODY has free time to spend it answering your questions. Also, posting oppinions and news about OpenTTD 1.4.0 is not something of interest since we haven`t switched to that. But yet you feel very good by seeing that most of the people do not know it, but you do.
So my conclusion is very simple: You absolutely need a break from that channel. I trully hope you won`t prove that it should be a permanent break.

[Andreas]

1st quote: The final team was decided by Geert and Batt. It is not up to you to declare if we had players or not. Also, the fact that you know certain specific insides of the n-ice community but you start posting them publicly is something that worries me. Way more then your accusation of arogance because of the frustration caused my decision from last evening.

I referred to the first tournament. There was a news post that said a player had to jump in as substitute at the last moment. So maybe you are right that it is not up to me to declare that. You already did that yourself in the news section. That still does not justify you belittling the players by asking them not to transform things into a drama like they are children that will start yelling and screaming if they are not allowed to play along. What specifics do I know that I start posting publicly? All the quotes I pasted here from you (except that 2 irc logs) are from the forum, so I really do not know what you are talking about. The accusation of arrogance is way older than last night, don't you worry. Just note the date of this post:

The reason I get irritated with you (note irritated, not aggressive) is your condescending tone, and tendency to  put the blame on others or other circumstances.

Also I am not frustrated with you banning me form the #openttd.chat channel. I am still able to speak to the people that want to communicate with me.

2nd quote: Kwissy was banned for cheating. Turning from such an action to a normal player and more importantly to someone who helps the n-ice community took a while...but I`m glad that he did it. After the ban he had a period when he insisted to change the money transfer several times. I can justify my answer to Kwissy if he requests it, or probably to any other player, but not to you. I simply do not consider that you deserve a justification after your recent behaviour. Also, asking me 7-8 times for something of which I already said I do not agree, kinda seems pointless, don`t you agree?

Thank you for proving my point that it is ok for you to offend other people but not the other way arround. No justification needed, I did not ask for it.

3rd quote makes absolutely no sense. You quoted a post from a different topic of the forum and placed it in a board where a player accused Kwissy of cheating the 2nd time. I researched and found no evidence that Kwissy would have done such a thing.

That is funny because that is your own post http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=483.msg2842#msg2842 (at the bottom of your post if you still cannot find it)

The reason why I quoted this is that in your words others have no excuse to be aggressive but you do.

4th quote refers again to something from another topic: You consider that you`re making a point quoting my answers from my replies in all the forum?
Or perhaps we have someone with a new obsession ? Since from what I remember, the replies that you posted are from 2-3 different topics, I can only think that you researched all of them?

No I consider that if you do something yourself you can expect the same kind of response. There are quite a few topics out there that are full of logs and other 'evidence' that you posted to prove what is wrong with their behavior. I return you the favor by doing the same to you. Does not feel nice getting confronted with your own words does it? I only remind you to the fact that you tell other players that there is no excuse for aggressive behavior but fail to apply that yourself.

6th quote: not even worth bothering answering? Kwissy cheated once for which we still have the proof, then that topic was referring to another player complaining about him? Did you think about that? Or again, frustration problem?

Quite telling that you do not find it worth bothering to answer to a post in which you unjustly accuse a player of lying...And no this was not in a topic where a player complained about him. This was from a topic where he made a good suggestion and you resisted it in every way you could only to have it implemented in the end anyway.
 

7th quote: yes, I consider I have the right to be angry while you don`t. You want to know why? Because I have the obligation to follow the n-ice protocols even in the case of annoying people like you. People who track the whole forum in order to try to make an interesting debate about somebody.
You want to know why again? I have never bothered you on IRC. About you bothering me could we say the same thing?

Really mate, I do not track the whole forum just to make a debate. I posted my support for a suggestion that I thought was a good one for the community. From that you somehow feel the need to get aggressive. The reason this whole thread was started was because you unjustly threatened me with a ban. Never bothered me on IRC? Are you sure? I would hate to get the logs but...

About me bothering you, depends what you consider bothering...

You used the fact that I did not reply to your 2 page reply as a reason to display certain behavior towards me, yet when I do answer you, you skillfully ignore it by only replying to the last post and try to shoot holes in it. Luckily you have grown past the point of simply removing posts that you do not like. Thumbs up for that. 

8th quote : The funny quotes section is made to post quotes in a friendly ironic way. I see nothing friendly between me and you. Also, your obsession for always warning and interfering in the fun of 2 players worries me.... The same as quoting only a part of the post in order to try to make a point.

If you look at that quote I see nothing friendly between those players. If you look at the log you posted before that it is even more clear. I can almost guarantee you that cobra jj was not enjoying the conversation but simply did not want to call an admin. I did not say that you should have warned him, I merely pointed out that posting it there it is a bit strange to say the least. You paste a clearly insulting log in the funny quotes forum while the rules state that insulting people is not allowed. I am not the only one that thinks admins should be specifically aware of rules and try not to get themselves in borderline situations!

It wasn`t spam.

I don't know what your definition of spam is but pasting a reply 12 times certainly fits my definition...

However, when it comes to your post....you did out of.....I don`t even know what it was. You felt the need to show me that you can repeat replies, BUT WITHOUT A REASON...which is spamming. Combined with flashing my name without a reason and your recent behaviour of bothering most of the people on the channel, it resulted in my telling you that you need a break from that channel.

You indeed miss the point. The point is that you do not judge your own actions the same way you do to others. You keep denying that you were spamming while I honestly don't know what else pasting a line 12 times could be called. My recent behavior of bothering most of the people?? I have not had any complaints about myself except form you. If any other people have a problem with me they have not told me so in any way.

After all the _______ justifications that you made write here AGAIN, even if I told them to you last evening, I can only concur that my judging of your behaviour was correct. I`m pretty sure you can understand the difference between 15 replies(more or less, I didn`t count them) WITH A REASON: designed to show anger because you were becoming very annoying and pretending not to see my answer and the 6 replies WITHOUT A REASON and posted only to show the muscles...or I have no idea why.

I cannot make any sense out of what you are saying here... sorry I simply do not understand. Maybe try some translator software?

Now my warning to you. Either you cut it out and take that break, or I will enforce the break on you. Bothering me is included.

[2014-01-28 01:14:55] <Andreas> hi 4lex, I did not realise you wanted an answer to that posts, but if you would like it, I am more than happy to answer

Note the fact that I wrote your name as 4lex in order not to disturb you if you were busy. If you do not want me to answer, you should not give me not answering as a reason not to reply to me in a normal way. As stated a few post back, the reason for resurrecting this topic is you saying you expected an answer.

As a justification to you: Your behaviour recently has been annoying for the people on the channel. It appears to me that you have got a lot of free time. Well, NOT EVERYBODY has free time to spend it answering your questions. Also, posting oppinions and news about OpenTTD 1.4.0 is not something of interest since we haven`t switched to that. But yet you feel very good by seeing that most of the people do not know it, but you do.
So my conclusion is very simple: You absolutely need a break from that channel. I trully hope you won`t prove that it should be a permanent break.

Now you just start ranting and looking for extra reasons for banning me where they are not. I did not ask questions there that I demanded an answer for. Discussing the fact that in your pov the OTTD dev's don't attempt to increase realism is also not something of interes for n-ice yet you felt the need to do that. A discussion about maglev being a viable alternative to air and rail travel is also not in the interest of n-ice but yet you start it... I honestly do not see what I did wrong in that respect. And lastly where do you get the impression that I feel good about knowing the features of the current trunk?? As I said before this seems like a sorry attempt to justify your actions towards me. There is no need for your justification. I do not agree with you, but I also will not appeal to your decision because it is not worth it to me. That means that there is no need to try so hard to make your case.


Note that in this whole reply there is no question except for the one where you assume that I somehow feel good about myself for knowing the game. There are only answers to your accusations/replies so don't even try to turn this reply into a reason to tell me I need a break and that I bother people.

P.s. Now that I read that part about you thinking that I feel very good, I cant help but wonder, has this quote got something to do with that idea?:

Each player has a different knowledge of the game, and then we got Andreas   He had the time to gain experience so he has a whole different understanding of the game.

(not a question, just a thought that crossed my mind...)

[The_Dude]

Andreas, you should become a writer, you are clearly wasted  talent

[Andreas]

hehe do you think? I will need some other inspiration though. People will get bored by pieces like these I fear...

[The_Dude]

I could not agree more. You put that very well, buddy