[Poll] Competition on secondary industries

[imus]

Katnomad, I mostly agree but your examples are a bit too extreme, so people will miss the point completely :p.

Some people prefer the competitive part in the way that you should build an equally good network for primaries (you can "steal" those) and transport these to your own factory/... But as you stated, there are other servers that play with those rules, if that's really what you want, why not play on those servers instead.

About your secondary industry example. What if you funded a lumber mill? It's a primary recourse so you don't get more money out of it than someone who's competing with you for it, even though you actually payed to get it there in the first place. That's why I would prefer a penalty/bonus system on funded industries, while maintaining the competitive play style of n-ice servers.

[Waldo]

I would prefer a penalty/bonus system on funded industries, while maintaining the competitive play style of n-ice servers.

I like this penalty/bonus thing.. but i'm sure it would be hard to implement.. may be it would need a new grf that awards the penalty/bonus based on the dates in which the stations were built..

[A.M.Sandulescu]

Imus, i was a bit angry yesterday...that is why i gave those straight answers.
I joined n-ice for: competition, the balance on servers, the fact that it is not easy to win, the intelligent scoring.... etc.
However, DO NOT mistake competition with stealing.

[katnomad]

Imus i am against the principe that you can "own" city or industry.

I do myself sometimes fund industry (lumber mill include ) and if i do it it is because behind i already have the network going well to absorb it. An if somebody have time to come to compet on it no problem for me. I f i m good enough i should be in advance on him , and will still make more money out of it than him. if not he is better than me , GG to him/her.

Sandulescu when you fund you do it with  all the understanding of the rules , so you accept the fact that people can also take profit of it. The problem is that actually most of the time in the game i have seen you, you do not follow the rule and private city you fund ,doing that on purpose . So before tellling us to not mistake competition and stealing , you should accept to be yourself a competitor and try to follow rules as they are , if you are good enough you should be able to win as being the first on the city you still have advantage on anybody on it.

 ALl , so i repeat myself , if you fund a city or industry with actual rules it is because you think that even if someone comes to compet on it you think that it will give you an advantage to win or for your personal goal in the game ( not all play for being the first on a single game) . But again it is my point of view and that is one of the reason  that make n-ice server so nice for me. it is not because you have a good network  and a good income that you are sure to win ,you must keep following all way long the game is on.

Sandulescu do not take bad what i said please , it is just that i feel you just play a way that it is not the spirit of the server . You are a good player making nice railway network , and i understand your point point of view but i do not share it that is  all.

but  still i am a simple user as you and not better than other (and for sure not the best player )

[Andreas]

oooohhh it's a tie! how will this end? 

[imus]

Thank you for the explanation about the real intention behind this poll. It really did feel like a big change was coming. I do agree that it has caused more unrest then you intended.
For me, it doesn't really matter if the rule passes or not. I would just follow the rules and try to have as much fun as possible anyway, even tho I have a preference for full competition.
Too bad the penalty/bonus system is probably hard to do as I think lots of people would like this idea.

@katnomad: sorry for misinterpreting your opinion first. I must have mixed it with that of some other people.

@Sandulescu: the competition/stealing debate is getting a bit off topic, I believe your interpretation of these two might be a bit off. If you want to start a real discussion about how to interpret both words in the context of N-ice games, I suggest you start a new forum topic so both of us, and other players can join in on what it truly means.

[Andreas]

The way I expressed myself might have given the wrong impression about the aim and status of the poll. Therefore I am posting an update to clarify:

The aim of this poll is to see how many players support the idea of a change of the current rule. I wanted to get an insight in this, since I have noticed an increase in the amount of players that are discussing stealing/competition. Also all ideas on how this can be implemented and your opinions are welcomed.

The previous poll was not closed because I considered it a done deal. It was done because I realised the concept of the poll with 4 vote options was not right to begin with.
For a start, there was no possible outcome that could create clarity on the matter. Also 2 options were not practical.
-   No competition on secondary is a rule that a majority of players are against
-   Only compete if you also deliver has too many loopholes (like bringing 1 truck and taking 10 trains) and would be too hard too judge, for both players and admins.

That was the reason for starting the new poll. This poll will run till the end of May.

If the outcome suggests a large part of the community (admins and players) would like something to change, We can discuss the options of how to implement an advantage for funding industries (be it all or just secondary, be it a claimed area or just a sign)
If we can reach something that is feasable in both gameplay and technical terms it can be tested, but no sooner. Both player, opertor and admin agreement is needed (and some coding).

My suggestion for the moment would be: Let the a game script check for the funding of secondary industries. (similar to the way achievements work now) If a company funds a industry place a sign with: Private industry, funded by [Company name] (similar to the signs is city builder.) I think that this will be fairly easy to implement, since both the code that checks for industries and the code to place signs already exist.

Off course this is only 1 possibility. All other suggestions are also welcomed

I am sorry if I might have created the suggestion that I want to force a change of the rules or interpret the poll only for my own biased idea.

The original post can be found here for who is interested. http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=379.0 This updated suggestion has been done after talking to other admins and opperators.

P.s. I have also altered the vote options. If you wish to change your vote click on 'remove vote' at the top of the screen and then vote for your new choice.

[alex879ro]

After discussing with Beul , I understand that this is a step we must consider. Players must decide (again due to critics since the last time when we held a vote...a year ago) if they want competition on n-ice servers or they want to change this. Also any new oppinions are welcomed (phesable ones ofc ^^)

In the case that there won`t be a clear majority we will find the 3rd option so everybody could be happy.

So far I can say that I vote for a change but I`m still 1 member. We will monitor this poll and the result will be discussed in the admin council.

The best you can do to make your oppinon more and more visible is to vote in bigger numbers

Also, for those of you who thought that your oppinions do not count: You are terribly wrong about it. Even if a specific change won`t be implemented because of a technical reason, the admin team acts according to what they know that players want.

Ofc , in order to implement such a change, admins, operators and xOR have to agree. It is a process that shapes a rule in order to make sure nobody can profit for it and ruin the games for the others. But it doesn`t mean that your oppinion won`t be heard and that it won`t be taken into consideration into all future plans.

[Geert]

I voted for owning funding industrie, because

-no more rulebreaking on rule 4
-less discussions on rule 2
-and a fair feeling also for me if you bring 10000 wood to a station and someone is ''stealing'' your goods

[aditsu]

I'd like to change the rule, and here are my favorite options, from most preferred to least preferred:
1. No competition on secondary industries and also on funded primary industries
2. No competition on secondary industries
3. No competition on funded industries
4. No competition on funded secondary industries - this looks like the 2nd option in the poll, but I'm not sure because the wording is ambiguous
5. No competition on any industry

Edit: One more idea - if the vote is close to a tie, take the 2 most popular competition options, and make some servers use one option and other servers use the other one.

[Andreas]

4. No competition on funded secondary industries - this looks like the 2nd option in the poll, but I'm not sure because    the wording is ambiguous.

You are correct, when changeing the poll I forgot to change part of the wording for the second option. It is fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out.

As for your other options:

1: no competition on secondary means even 2 people that both like to compete on them would not be able to do so. Also if you don't like competition on your factory it would be relatively cheap to fund your own.
My first thougt was that to suggest  makeing funded primary private as well. The main difficulty with that (imo) is posed by lumbermills: they are quite cheap, and can make a lot of money. Therefore, and in an attempt to improve the situation without causing too much limitations I changed the poll option to secondary. (Allso large 'farms' of primary industries in long goal servers might have a bad impact, but there might be no other way to tell than to have tested it sometime)

Unknowingly that reply kindof is a reaction to no2 and 3 as well.

As for the suggestion of different rules for different servers: It might cause confusion to players which could lead to lots of unfriendly situations based on pure misunderstanding. Therefor it should be avoided when possible.

[alex879ro]

The purpose of this pole is also to understand how big are the 2 groups (those that want competition and those who do not want competition).

This will server also for future server proposals and for the vision of the servers in the future.

Unfortunately ....those who do not want competition are split into more then 1 group. (Beul understood this and changed the poll).
So reaching a statistic will take some time (especially to organise the poll and to vote)

[gigarail]

Think it is defferent on each server,

For instance in a city builder, "stealing" from secondary industries is very unfair, because the other player puts a lot of time in making sure that the secondary industry produces enough stuff. But in a company value game, it does matter, but than it is fair to take those goods or food. But different rules for each server off course are also very confusing. Maybe just make a difference between the city builder servers and the CV-servers.

Gigarail

[imus]

Played another game on 3 where the wood has the biggest impact (game ends about 2-3 years after building a good wood network). Changed my strategy to first put the network down and then fund the lumber mills (duh). This made me think that if you do this, you already got a huge advantage before someone else can run away with half of your wood (too late for them to still win if you played it smart). So I agree that competition on primaries should always stay possible.

For the secondaries, there are 2 big concerns that need to be considered (just reiterating what some others have said):
1) competition on everything please! (leave rule as it is). <- my current preference.
This way you got a fair(?) way to still win from someone that started on the server earlier but is too lazy to adapt to later situations.
2) owning secondary (only funded?) industries allows you to block it since nobody else is allowed to "steal" from it anyway. This makes it a lot easier to build an efficient drop and separate pickup station next to it without people complaining about rules. Less complaining => more fun. <- I wouldn't feel bad if this rule was implemented either.
bonus on 2: someone stealing food/goods/... on city builder games can stop you completely till you are able to build a new network to compensate for the sudden drop. This leads to a lot of frustration and thus less overall fun in the game.

I think it might be feasible to consider no stealing on CB games only even though you got 2 different rules now. This is because CB games are considered different enough already. Note that ALL admins need to be fully aware of this situation to immediately clear up any confusion in case it arises, otherwise it will have a really bad impact on how players feel about a certain type. (look at the sabotation situation on CB recently).

[Chucky]

well, the vote will probably be a draw ..