this SHOULDN'T happen

[YorVeX]

I asked what Der_Herr's idea was so we could discuss it (albeit with other words)

"with other words" means wrapped in sarcasm and with the usual taste of "all n-ice admins are evil", later even going as far as insinuating personal agendas with ill-minded plans to let things escalate for enforcement of a settings change someone wants.
yet you expect to be taken serious and treated properly by us. did that sum it up properly?

if you want us to improve you could try to point out mistakes we made without building up whole stories around it only based off your assumptions and without expecting us to extract your critics from sentences full of negativity.

but if i really do that and extract your actual critics from all the badmouthing of our actions, i get:
- we should have pointed out the suggestions by Der_Herr discussed on IRC here too
- you don't think the rule needs to be changed, especially you don't want to disable town funding (not in general and even less because of this rule)

did i get this right?

[YorVeX]

@Aberwyvern so do you think rephrasing the "of the space" part to to make it more clear would help?

also i agree that your screenshot shows another problem with the rule (but honestly, what you did in the screenshots ST2 has posted is a whole different story). how about some brainstorming, let's go back to the drawing board and think what we could do. at this point no favourites and opinions from my side, just pure and neutral listing of ideas. posted it to a new thread to keep it sorted a bit:
http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=170.0

[Aberwyvern]

@Aberwyvern so do you think rephrasing the "of the space" part to to make it more clear would help?

Yes I think that would make it more clear, and I would in general suggest that when a particular thing is meant, in more than one section of the rules, it should be worded in the same or in a very similar way.

"with other words" means wrapped in sarcasm and with the usual taste of "all n-ice admins are evil", later even going as far as insinuating personal agendas with ill-minded plans to let things escalate for enforcement of a settings change someone wants.

I think the reason ZeroIncome talks about ST2's personal agenda, is that he stated in his post that he doesn't like the practice of funding towns and making several industries close to each other, and would like either a rule that forbids it, or change the server settings so it is no longer possible. (ST2's agenda)

But his justification for restarting the server was:

the damage was already done

The only irreversible action i had taken was to fund these towns and industries. He could have asked me to remove the stations, rails and signs that he claimed were blocking other players. Or he could have reset the company. But his dislike for clusters of industries made him reset the server, and I think his agenda made him assume bad faith, and he therefore made a rash decision to restart the server. I don't think it was part of a plot by ST2 to spark changes of the server settings, but it did cause him to enforce a rule, that he would like to be, but that is not (yet?) on the rules page.

@YorVex: I have read your post in the suggestions section about rule four, I have further suggestions to clarifying that rule, and I will post them there later.

[ST2]

well I have to quote myself to Aberwyvern (and ZeroIncome, as Aberwyvern said)  understand what's my "personal agenda":

1 - ANY industry/town not acessible to other player it's blocking a industry/town... no doubt on that;
2 - Question to Aberwyvern: Was that respected here?;

And tell us the part you did not understand on the rules there! When answered, please remember that a server restart was a agreement between admins online and ingame (3) because... and as I said "the damage was already done" and there was no way of fix it^a).
Aberwyvern, initially this post wasn't focused on you but on a behaviour... and I don't want to believe that you "closed your eyes" to some fundamental rules, only because you were the only player (not company) ingame... probably expecting that admins didn't noticed... it takes a lot of nerve to write this: "...but it did cause him to enforce a rule, that he would like to be, but that is not (yet?) on the rules page". You are at least conscious of your actions ingame?
Furthermore... ^a)any industry cluster is maleficent for gameplay for the same reason: space limitation around it; wich combined with the towns founded to create the new industries leads to block other player from getting access to them (towns and industries).
So and again, my "personal agenda" is to keep the gameplay fun for all and not having players only creating towns/industries to have "clusters" to win.

(...) or change the server settings so it is no longer possible. (ST2's agenda)

funny that you mention this... are on this thread too... but somehow, more words firework and no real answers/suggestions to it!

[alex879ro]

Well, I haven`t posted so far in this topic.(My apologies for that St2, I know u wanted an answer faster, but i wanted to see the opinion of the players)

1: I agree with Geert (who is a player just like Zero Income ....what an amazement?) I think this should be treated as a normal case of rule-break and not take special measures for it. As I declared previously, I have thought about this myself a few times , but removing city funding would mean entering in a darker area , where the game would lose the dynamics it has.
2: I would agree with any kind of rule change to make this more understandable.
3: I would also agree with the implementation of Der_Herr `s idea once the tests show it is viable (Minimum distance between industries)
Basically , it`s the same point of view I had on this matter.

4: I propose (Right here on this forum.....so everybody can see it) to remove Zero Income`s permissions to talk (I dunno, a solution to mute him....or something)
Because: A) He offered no viable advice so far , all he does is just sit in a chair and say "this is a conspiracy"
               B) I think everybody is tired of his sarcasting comments all saying the same thing , no matter what the subject is
                C) Nobody has the right to make Der_Herr come here on the forum. The IRC channel is a communication way viable and perfectly legal to those of us who want to make a little effort when we`re at the computer. Just as this lazy "guy" says that Der_Herr can come here and state his opinion, Der_Herr could say "Let him come on IRC" and be perfectly right about it...
                D)Everybody who states an opinion and who is an admin always has to suffer sarcastic replies from this guy.
                E)At least Der_Herr stated an opinion (and a very good one) even if he wasn`t so interested on this matter
                F)He never knows when to stop....always arguing until everybody is so tired of his opinion and the subject

5: As an answer to Aberwyvern : Yes , I did say END OF DISCUSSION , because after looking at 999999 coal mines covered by one station on each side and saying "This is not blocking. I occupy 40% of the surface cause the coal mine itself occupies 60%" is the end of the discussion. Continuing that discussion would be possible only after u take a math manual in your hand and learn to calculate surface. Unfortunately , the other reply saying "The coal mines were not reachable by 2 stations " would  point to another direction....You have either lost your sight.....or you were looking at other stations. Since the fact that we screenshoted that problem and you still maintain your opinion makes me stop and not know what to think.....

I am not the kind to sit and discuss whatever would be your vision no matter what(Everybody knows Zero Income`s vision...he states it all the time)...it is either on-topic (examples: Geert,Vitalikk2005 which are players btw..."OMFG , they must have other qualities too" .....NO....they just know how to make a point and not engage into debates which end when everybody else is too bored of this subject) or off-topic(I don`t think I have to state an example here...do I?) Aberwyvern however seems to have  a normal vision (That is if you found the problem we were talking about)and normal opinions which we are trying to understand....

@Zero Income : I know that this will make you push the reply button and just start your usual endless debate but...I would advise you not to do it in the usual way (doesn`t matter what the topic is, the only topic you talk about is "ADMINS ARE EVIL and part of a conspiracy...a global one)  because you would be talking alone again(not the first time this ever happened, isn`t it...?)

[ZeroIncome]

Sorry if I come across in a certain way, I will try to explain: Some things I just think are logical. When these things aren't done I start to wonder why not.

For instance here ST2 makes a post about problems with industry funding - great.
In his next post he says there were some discussions on IRC that they are currently looking into, but he doesn't summarize what. So either you had to have been there or... Yea. So that kind of kills the discussion. (How can we discuss something we do not know)

It also seems that the N-ice is only looking for members that have exactly the same vision / mentality as the admins. (In other words you need to have the same style of playing and be very technically minded) - If this is really what you want then it appears I joined the wrong community.
I like the diversity in opinions and ways people do things. I hate to break it to you, but not everybody is a server wizard and wants to know the ins and outs of how servers work, but that doesn't mean they don't want to contribute. But obviously they can't here, because RTFM, then make suggestions or GTFO. (I don't even think you can deny this one, since all suggestions by me are met with "aah - lazy, bla bla bla". All I can say is that if I wanted to know exactly how openttd servers worked and all the settings then I'd probably make my own...)

Geert isn't techinically minded and knows nothing about server stuff - as far as I can tell, but he is your top player and his opinion is thus listened to no matter what. When I made a suggestions to raise the terraforming limit I hate to battle and look up all sorts of stuff to even get considered. So I think this is an example of why I don't think all players are equal (Or all opinions)

Also when you talk down to people and just say "End of discussion" you're not resolving anything. This just creates tension. It's just like you're talking to a child. (As I already said talking down to other players) So this gives a perception that you think you are better than the rest. Which you are not.


As for the discussion at hand I think Der_Herr's suggestion is good.

Now this post will probably be dismissed with some or other reason, or I'll be told it's in the wrong section, but each time I make these posts I just hope I help you think outside the box for once.

I never know when to stop - well I can't just let you talk shit about me and not defend myself now can I?

[alex879ro]

Sorry if I come across in a certain way, I will try to explain: Some things I just think are logical. When these things aren't done I start to wonder why not.

For instance here ST2 makes a post about problems with industry funding - great.

Yes, that is his vision and that`s how he sees a server. I see in the oposite way....even if most of my talks with him end with agreements, you can clearly see that when it comes to bigger changes, I have an oposite opinion(Just like in this post). But we accept and respect each other.If you really want to know us, you should know that some admins are believing that small servers are better, hard ones even better and other admins think that big ones more easy are better, but that doesn`t stop us from discussing our opinions.

"In his next post he says there were some discussions on IRC that they are currently looking into, but he doesn't summarize what. So either you had to have been there or... Yea. So that kind of kills the discussion. (How can we discuss something we do not know)"

Understood but only 1 problem: In my logical but it seems that stupid world, the answer would have been to ask "what`s der_herr `s suggestion ?"if we forgot to say it, not use sarcasm and make everybody angry

"It also seems that the N-ice is only looking for members that have exactly the same vision / mentality as the admins. (In other words you need to have the same style of playing and be very technically minded) - If this is really what you want then it appears I joined the wrong community."

Should i state the first paragraph again? not necesary...i can add that not even admins that support big servers can agree between themselves...or with players. For example: I don`t agree with funding industries when u make system, Geert thinks it`s a good way of playing.

But obviously they can't here, because RTFM, then make suggestions or GTFO. (I don't even think you can deny this one, since all suggestions by me are met with "aah - lazy, bla bla bla".

That is because today, after some weeks of angering us, you entered your first real opinions on the forum. Not the ones that sound "YOU TOOK MY IDEA AND I WANT CREDIT FOR IT" or "ADMINS ONLY LISTEN TO THEMSELVES" but saying that u consider an option...or agree with someone...or propose something
So far , this forum was only a podium for you where you would throw your acid replies on the admins of n-ice. No opinions so far....nothing...only conspiracy and admins don`t listen to anyone.

All I can say is that if I wanted to know exactly how openttd servers worked and all the settings then I'd probably make my own...)

I don`t want to comment on this but only to say that I personally don`t see you doing so much work not even in 1 million years. You are too lazy to state an opinion and think about some things....not even to speak about hosting a server.

Geert isn't techinically minded and knows nothing about server stuff - as far as I can tell, but he is your top player and his opinion is thus listened to no matter what.

This is you practically insulting a player for which you should hold respect since he knows more things about gameplay then you will ever know. Your respect should come based on the fact that he is the fastest player of this server and that he thought a lot of players tactics and ways to handle their problems. But for you, he is again part of this conspiracy against you.Geert has talked with us on the IRC loads of times and states his thoughts and opinions and even when we didn`t agreed, he proved his point.

So I think this is an example of why I don't think all players are equal (Or all opinions)

All players are equal for us. Experience is not equal. Yes, opinions are not equal. How would you expect for a player that states an "idiot " opinion to be equal with a player who states an opinion based on tests or experience. Cossack stated his opinion that he did nothing wrong when i banned him....How should I have considered that opinion? Good? That`s one proof that opinions are not equal and a proof why.

Also when you talk down to people and just say "End of discussion" you're not resolving anything. This just creates tension. It's just like you're talking to a child. (As I already said talking down to other players) So this gives a perception that you think you are better than the rest. Which you are not.

So what should i have said to cossack when even if 3 admins saw him, he stated that he did nothing wrong. Should i have said ...go on...bug me with an opinion which already proved wrong by the fact that 3 admins saw you? What should i have said to Aberwyvern when he stated that industries occupy 60% of their own cachement area? For god`s sake we would have physicians astounded by that statement......Should i have said " Go on" when he kept on stating a wrong vision?
As for me or any admin thinking he is better then you, that`s just your OBSESSION!

As for the discussion at hand I think Der_Herr's suggestion is good.

Wow, finally an opinion.

Now this post will probably be dismissed with some or other reason, or I'll be told it's in the wrong section, but each time I make these posts I just hope I help you think outside the box for once.

So what should we do? Approve with your vision that is simply against admins, no matter what the subject is? The evidence is the forum itself...check your posts to see why everybody says the same, why the other players ignore you....Oh..ofc...except Cossack who admited of having a gentleman`s agreement with you to support you and vice-versa.

You said those stuff about Geert, what about the other players? They`re not technically minded either, are they? Or is everybody else no1 and that`s why we take their advices into account? What about vitalikk who proved his point a lot of times? What about the other players? Everybody is wrong, but you are right...isn`t it?

The only thing u`ll get with this way of always pointing on admins .....no matter what the topic is...is get yourself muted. And check your posts....I`m not speaking so i won`t be dreaming....I checked all your posts. Except the ones you stated today, wherever u talk, u are always against the idea and always point on the fact that an admin is discussing...The only thing that u miss....is the reason for this forum...to state your idea!!!!!

[YorVeX]

Sorry if I come across in a certain way, I will try to explain: Some things I just think are logical. When these things aren't done I start to wonder why not.

sounds perfectly reasonable. but there is 80% sarcasm and hate and 20% content in your texts. you're not "wondering", you're "blaming". if you don't know something you always assume the worst about admins.

maybe the rest is on your mind but you don't type it. but the view your present of yourself above isn't what others see from the outside. there seems to be a deviation between your self-perception and how you act.

[Aberwyvern]

What should i have said to Aberwyvern when he stated that industries occupy 60% of their own cachement [sic] area? For god`s sake we would have physicians astounded by that statement......Should i have said " Go on" when he kept on stating a wrong vision?

I have tried to explain this to you, twice before the restart, and also here on the forum (where YorVeX seems to understand), but i will gladly explain it to you again, since I have tried my best to explain it with words and you still continue to mock me, i will explain with screenshots:





Rule four states that no player must occupy more than 50 % of the space around an industry, and since this "space around" is different from the "coverage area" used in rule 3, i assumed they were different, and the screenshots show my assumptions, after the reset, Batt explained that the two areas were meant to be read as the same, and that is why I suggested clarifying that in the rules.

[alex879ro]

So basically...what i don`t understand is : why do you consider the space occupied by the other 2 coal mines as "free"? Since it was you who built the coal mines..
If I block a city with factories.....the city isn`t blocked ? There is no "the coal mines occupy 60%" That`s what i said...it is still you occupying because you built the coal mines.
I did not mock you, but you stated that i said end of discussion and i answered why I said "end of discussion"
1st reason was that u proved that u didn`t want to understand the perfectly clear rule which said : 1 loading station / industry
2nd: because you were stating that coal mines occupies 60% of the surface. Coal mine is an industry from the game. It cannot occupy unless it was randomly built...and the cases are very rare. You were occupying the space.

So let`s say that I understood the first case...at least what u were trying to say...What about the second case "Only 1 loading station / industry" ?

[ST2]

we refer to station coverage area (rules and so on)... and Aberwyvern is talking about industry influence area. Hopefully he understand the difference. (basically because of industry tiles with acceptance and deliverance properties)...

[ST2]

PS: only to show a bit of the harm that industry clusters can cause to the gameplay: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection214668935.png

yeah... is too far away... lets look closer: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection214702444.png and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection215516332.png

Note: to players that still didn't got it: industry #755 is a reference...covered by 2 stations... why?: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/_example1.png

Note: This happened on server #k4 and is only to show how bad can cause to gameplay... including rule violations...

And I can understand this situations... http://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection216559729.png because not harming anyone and building the system...

[alex879ro]

Well, basically that`s the situation on k4 now....just as Kadar wrote...the servers are still testing environments...If you would have seen it a week ago...it didn`t had the terraforming rule. I haven`t made my decision for oil rig clusters yet....Oil rig is not used in any of our servers...and i can tell you that it`s very hard making a system based on oil rigs.....So far only 1 conclusion to the settings of k4 : we have to decrease industry number
Beyond that...i have no conclusions yet...

[ST2]

Well, basically that`s the situation on k4 now....just as Kadar wrote...the servers are still testing environments...If you would have seen it a week ago...it didn`t had the terraforming rule. I haven`t made my decision for oil rig clusters yet....Oil rig is not used in any of our servers...and i can tell you that it`s very hard making a system based on oil rigs.....So far only 1 conclusion to the settings of k4 : we have to decrease industry number
Beyond that...i have no conclusions yet...

well, some learnings to take on it... Best way to set a map is on SP... save the CFG file and send it as suggestion. The next 1/2 games are for simple adjustements. Only because is much simple for who is setting the server is to have a exact value instead of "we have to decrease industry number", basically because can include "multiple_industry_per_town", "number_industries" or "industry_density". only a question to pick the right setting.